The first part of the week, my vet called back to answer questions I asked last Saturday when I picked up copies of the medical records for my girls and kids. I asked him if I misunderstood what he said about Capri's uterine muscles and her lack of strong contractions. He said I did understand, that in her case because of the number and size of the kids, her uterus was so full that the muscles were stretched too far for her to have strong contractions. He indicated this is not a usual thing to have happen but also said that it might be prudent to consider not breeding her again if she is prone to multiple births. It seems she is, with 3, then 1, now 4. Of course, you all know that I am really giving this some serious consideration.
He mentioned something else in the conversation that, if true, might shed light on some of this for us. He said that if the doe is gaining weight at the time she gets pregnant, she is more prone to having more babies. I asked, you mean like squirrels who have babies dependent on the food supply? He said just like that. Quite frankly, I am not so sure that he isn't right on with that. It makes total sense when looking at the animal kingdom as a whole. For instance, the alpha wolves do not allow breeding when food is scarce. When people ask me why NDs have so many kids I say that perhaps it is because they are so little and more susceptible to predators so they have to have more to survive and that may be why they breed all year - don't know but it makes total sense.
So, I am wondering, has anyone else ever heard if weight gain on a doe before she comes in heat affects the number of kids she births? If this is true, perhaps we can keep our litters smaller by cutting back on food a couple of weeks before they are expected to come into heat. It might be interesting if someone has the ability to weigh their does for them to weigh them twice a week every week at least a month before and after breeding to see if there might be a relationship to number of kids conceived.
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Actually Rachel, you are understanding very well. You are basically correct BUT as with the English language there seem to be exceptions to every rule. Hence the reason to "never say never"!
Let me clarify for you and future readers that the multiples we are mostly referring to here as being more risky are not so much the twins or triplets. We are mostly referring to those that are higher in number and the higher the more dangerous! Yes, the risk we are discussing are things like very small and/or weak kids that may struggle or not make it and also the fact that with so many sometimes they may get tangled up inside causing various problems including an inability to exit the uterus "in an orderly fashion" so to speak! Somewhat like what happens in a crowded building on fire full of panic! Sometimes they all seem to want to be born at once. This is not the norm, but does sometimes happen.
FOR THE MOST PART, most of us do want multiples for the reasons you stated and try not to over feed to prevent large kids, but we also don't necessarily want a lot of quads, quints or sextuplets because of the problems they can cause. That is why Deborah is saying that we may not want to breed does to bucks when they both come from does who produce a lot of kids at once. I don't think that most of us are to concerned about having to bottle feed a few kids in such a case because we always know that is a chance we are taking no matter how many kids are born. If someone isn't willing to do that when necessary they should not be breeding. It is part of the responsibility we need to be willing to take.
And another thing I hope the newbies understand about flushing is that as Deborah pointed out the does (bucks too for that matter) should always be in great shape for breeding. Flushing SHOULD NOT mean feeding them better TO GET them in good shape before breeding. It should mean feeding them extra. A perfect example of this would be that many people do not feed grain to dry does, they don't usually need it. But if you wanted to flush an otherwise healthy doe you might add grain to her diet several weeks before breeding. This is believed by many too increase the chances of her having more kids! This is what most of the old timers did because most of there herds were not only pastured and not fed grains, but were actually free ranged, before laws changed that started to require livestock be fenced. Yes, for some of you young folks who may not realize it, many years ago MOST homestead stock was not fenced at all! This was common and legal then!
Flushing is not usually a good idea with NDs, or other very productive breeds, but worth it if you are dealing with breeds known to have very few kids such as the swiss breeds!
This has been a very interesting read!
I have a sort of related question. I have always read and been told that multiples were better because more kids = smaller kids and smaller kids = easier passage. But from what I'm getting here, can more kids also cause kidding trouble? Other than trouble for the humans in needing to bottle feed and such.
The biggest litters I've had so far were triplets, and the only time I've had a doe have problems so far was when one had twins and they were too big. I found out at the vet's that she had a small pelvis -- the vet could barely get her hand through and her hands are small -- so she needed a c-section and neither kid made it. I sold her to a pet home. I also found out through talking with another breeder that I had likely contributed because I had fed too much during her pregnancy, but I still think I would have run into problems eventually after finding out about her narrow pelvis.
Very informative! Thanks Deborah! Guess I won't have to worry too much about my breeding options, since one of my bucks was a twin and one a single! I don't think they were the odd (low number) kids out for their moms!
I totally agree with everything Patty said, including the fact that if the kids are not lined up in the birth canal properly, the doe won't have strong contractions. When Coco was in labor with her five this last time, she was having wimpy contractions all day long, and when I finally checked her, there were multiple kids trying to come out at the same time so that instead of having a nice nose and pair of hooves trying to come through the uterus, there were all of these various body parts all over the place. She was 9 years old and this was her second set of quints; she'd had quads three times before, and never had a problem with delivering them.
I know a lot of vets are freaked out by Nigerians and their large litters. Maybe the Swiss breeds have trouble with effective contractions when they're carrying multiples, but NDs do it quite often and easily. And if you buy the idea that multiples cause ineffective uterine contractions, then you should find another breed or only buy NDs whose dams and grand-dams have a history of singles and twins, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to find a line of NDs that does not have multiples. This year, my herd average was 3.1 kids per dam. I know Capri's birth was really traumatic for you, and I'm not trying to talk you into breeding her again if you don't want to, but I'm also saying that IMO multiples are simply unavoidable if you have a well-nourished ND herd.
You may have noticed I qualified that last statement with the phrase "well-nourished" ND herd. NDs are genetically programmed to throw lots of eggs -- some people say because they're from Africa, which is a very harsh environment. Pygmies, Boers, and Nubians (also from Africa originally) also tend to throw multiples more than other breeds. But when an animal is not getting its nutritional needs met, it won't perform at its peak -- and that means it won't produce as many babies or as much milk. I wrote about flushing quite a bit in my book, and the idea behind it is sound, but I don't flush, and I don't like the idea that it puts emphasis on a single month of the year. Especially because we have dairy goats, we should be providing our animals with the best possible nutrition 12 months a year. The problem with that study cited in the Cornell fact sheet is that those are meat goats. People pretty much forget about them after their kids are weaned, meaning that they are probably under-nourished as they approach breeding season. Something like a selenium deficiency won't manifest itself in a body condition score. And I have seen an absolute correlation between selenium deficiency, using BoSe, or using free-choice selenium with my goats and increased kidding rates.
So ... the bottom line is that if you are providing all of your goat's nutritional needs, they will perform up to their genetic potential, meaning they will throw multiples if that's in their genes. If their nutritional needs are not being met, they will throw less kids, and if they're severely deficient, they won't even get pregnant or come into heat. I've seen the whole spectrum over the years. And one thing that just became really clear to me is that we really should be paying attention to the number of kids does throw if we don't want these crazy litters of 5-6 kids. Coco's dam regularly threw quads and had a dam that threw quads, and Coco's sire had a dam that threw quads and even 6 one year! Looking back on that, I'm thinking that was a breeding that probably should not have happened nine years ago. And by the way ... I know you remember all the nutritional problems we had originally ... Coco gave birth two weeks early as a two-year-old. I don't remember how many kids because they were all dead, but she had triplets as a three year old and twins as a four year old, and after that was when we finally got our nutritional issues figured out. And she had 4-5 every year after that. All of the bucks that I have now come from does that tend to throw mostly twins and triplets. I did keep a Coco buck, and hopefully I will never forget that he shouldn't be bred to a doe that has a history of quads.
Glenna, I would have said just what Patty has said to you!
But my first thought as I began to read what you wrote was that you were talking about "flushing". It is a much older practice than any of us and considering how long the old timers have used it, I am pretty confident in it working. But lets remember here that we are also talking about a practice from the old timers which means that NDs were not even in this country back then and therefore we are talking in terms of goats who generally kidded with 1 or 2 kids. Flushing hopefully gave those farmers more twins and maybe a few triplets, perhaps the very rare quads! It is still a very common practice with many breeders just not one you hear mentioned in the ND world much! We have goats who do this naturally and therefore we don't need to do this!
I did provide some extra feed for my non ND girls! I am very for it with other breeds mostly because I like to make sure they are as healthy as possible and get all the weight they can on to make sure the kids don't pull them down to much. Plus since I am breeding big does to ND bucks, I want those kids to be as big as possible so that they don't come tiny and suffer the ills of being to small. That is the one good thing about the bigger does. Don't have to worry so much about the kids being to big! Love that part!
I don't necessarily buy this idea totally, though I know there may be some truth to it sometimes. I know that selenium deficiency can cause low birth rates, and giving selenium before breeding can increase litter sizes too.
However, large numbers of kids run in certain lines, owned by different people who manage their herds differently. I have a doe from one of those lines, and she's had triplets both of her freshenings, the first and second. She is usually trim, and not prone to gaining a lot of weight. She also gives a nice amount of milk, so she's thinning at breeding time, and not gaining. One of my other does is very prone to getting fat. She's had 2 kids, then 1, then 2 again, even though she easily carries excess flesh, doesn't give a whole lot of milk, and manages to gain weight while in milk.
It's also been my experience that if something is just not quite right as far as entry into the birth canal, strong contractions will often not be stimulated. It's that entry into the birth canal that causes strong, pushing contractions to happen. There are many does who give birth to large numbers of kids and push them all out fast and fine.
I am NOT an expert on goat births, of course, so these are just the questions I have in my mind about your vet's thoughts. I'm sure each case is totally different too, so he could be exactly right in your case. Goats seem out to prove all theories wrong though. ;) I am always saying, "I'm sure... I think," when it comes to goats.
Yup, there are even people who feed them more on purpose, it's called "flushing".
http://ansci.cornell.edu/goats/Resources/GoatArticles/Factsheets/Fl...
Not certain what I think about it in NDGs who are prone to multiples anyways.
I have no idea if the converse would work though.