I'm having a seriously guilt filled, what if, if only, I shoulda kind of day. No sleep so very tired, and heartbroken. Confused, full of questions.
I learned one thing from it all that I wanted to share before I try to put the whole thing behind me:
I didn't know that a doe could be in labor and having serious problems kidding without any obvious signs of contractions or pushing. She can. She was at 144 days yesterday. I attributed her discomfort and seeming inability to lay down and rest on illness, which she does seem to have had. It seemed that her lungs were filling with fluid, and she was choking and coughing it up. Large amounts of clear fluid. I thought she was going to die from drowning or choking on it. I was in the house making phone calls to get help, and talking with my husband about the possibility of putting her down when she died. I'd gotten the exact information I needed about the labor (not the illness???), and advice to stick my finger inside to see if she was dilating, as it sounded like perhaps she was ill and in labor as well. When I got back to the barn to check her, she had passed away, fully dilated and with a bubble present. I am one heartbroken girl today. Boy, do ya have to learn the HARD way sometimes. I need a good cry and sleep...
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Thanks, Deborah, for your input. I know the whole body chemistry is a tricky thing. I guess you can only try to learn from experience. I never even dealt with coccidiosis, in all the years, until I brought a buckling in a couple of years ago with it. We saved him with lots of TLC and meds. These kids just had a little scours starting and I panicked, for one thing. I thought the preventative course would help. I guess you just have to learn from it all, do what you can and know that you can't save them all. Thanks so much. This is a great learning and support group.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
I am sooo sorry to hear about Cupcake. :'( {HUGS}
On the Corid-thiamine connection -- if you dose Corid at the prescribed rate for treatment for only five days, you should not have a problem with thiamine deficiency. It should NOT be used for prevention because long-term use will eventually result in thiamine deficiency. I just wanted to mention this because I'd hate for someone to lose a kid to coccidiosis if the coccidia in their area are resistant to the sulfa drugs.
For prevention of coccidiosis, management is of paramount importance. However, if someone finds themselves with a herd-wide problem, using a medicated feed is the preferred route. Using the liquid drugs for prevention simply makes them worthless in the long run as the coccidia become resistant to them. And then you are stuck with nothing working other than Corid.
And Patricia, it is entirely possible that something else caused the deficiency, so don't beat yourself up. Goats normally produce all of their own thiamine in their rumen, so anything that can upset the rumen can wind up causing a thiamine deficiency -- like a goat getting into the chicken grain and gorging itself. As for the other kids, if you are no longer giving the Corid, they should be fine with their thiamine levels. As you noted, the Corid depletes thiamine. Once you quit giving it, the kids should be back to producing their own again. Giving Corid and thiamine at the same time completely negates the Corid because its mode of action is to kill the coccidia by depleting its thiamine.
I had a doe die a couple of months after kidding last year. My vet suggested taking her to the vet lab up in Provo, not far from us. For $50 they did a necropsy and sent the results to my vet and myself. When my vet came out, she was already so far gone that she put her down for me and we drove her up there. In a few days we had the results. She was thiamine deficient and it was Goat Polio. It happens so fast; first depression then staggering, fell down, arched her neck back and stayed that way until the vet came. It seemed a lot like tetanus from the symptoms. Her eyes were open and moving and I could give her fluids with a syringe and she swallowed it.
This year, just the beginning of this week, I lost my favorite doeling to what I believe was the same thing. She was only 6 weeks old and the strongest kid out there. I detected a little depression and gave her a B-complex injection (which I had on hand from the experience with my doe). She did not snap out of it and died the next day. The symptoms progressed, just like the doe. All I can say is, I am still sick to my stomach over it and I keep saying I want to quit and not go through this anymore. It has been over 30 years with the goats, so you know I have seen a lot of heartache. I keep sticking it out; why, I don't know.
The worst thing is about this time is that I was treating some of the babies for coccidiosis and didn't have the Albon that the vet gave me last year and I used Corid. I found out that Corid brand coccidiostat has a thiamine depleter. WARNING! I don't know why they don't have a warning on the label for goats. I had to go to the Internet for this. So far the other kids seem okay, but they are all on B injections. So, now, I feel like I killed her. Sorry for rambling, but I am just knowing what you are going through. I hope you are doing better, since it has been awhile since all of this discussion. I haven't been on here for awhile. Great support group!
Patty Meyer said:
I am so sorry, Deb! I have just read about Coco! Yes, that was part of my point! Considering each kid a blessing from God. That and our willingness to be there IN CASE and help in any way we can! But, enough of that, we have you to worry about right now. So I will conclude about this by just saying we do our best to educate and support each other here and hope to be an asset to all who come to the forum to share! We have a wonderful circle of friendship here, and I feel blessed by each and every one of you! I just have to remind myself sometimes when others infuriate me, that you can educate ignorance but you can't fix stupid! So now I will return to Cocos discussion to offer a word of support!
I know exactly what you mean, Margaret. I view every kid as a gift from God. I don't know why it's here, but I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point. In the meantime, I feel an obligation to do my best to take good care of it.
I saw "the post" as I was running back to U of I for the second time today and have been thinking about how to respond. As I was doing so much driving today (because U of I is 2 hours away), I was hoping someone else would respond!
And I do wish you were here right now! I could use a neighbor like you!
Margaret Langley said:
It just really sucks that it is not as easy to get together in person as it is on the computer! But that is not a good attitude of me, I know. We should be thankful for what we have & not fret over what we don't! Thank God we can at least share in each others lives this way!
Margaret, I am right with you. If I were closer I would bring my pots and pans and join you in preparing
that much needed meal. I would also be able to give hugs.
So wish I was closer!
Sweetheart, I wish I were close enough to run right over. After what you have been through, you need more than a sandwich. I would have to breakout the pots & pans! You need a good old SOUTHERN MEAL for the family! It's cornbread and sweet tea time! To go along w/corn on the cob, greens, fried chicken and apple pie w/ ice cream! Real Comfort Food! Served up Southern Style w/ A Smile!
Margaret, I'm sure you're right and we'll know when we know what it is you're trying to say, but right now I'm stumped! Hugs to you, though, and I bet you're right and we'll understand. :) ...Could you come make me a sandwich? ;)
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