I've been struggling a lot recently with how to talk to others who own goats and are doing things that mortify me! I don't want to come off as a know-it-all because I am still learning so much myself and have only owned goats since August of 2014.
I always recommend Raising Goats Naturally when talking to people and tell them about this site in the hopes that they will do further research and take care of their goats properly, but I get so frustrated because some of them just flatly refuse to continue researching! I guess it's hard for me to understand that because I crave new information and love reading through all the posts on this site whenever I have time.
My distress is coming mainly from one person I have recently come into contact with (though there have been several that make me cringe with their practices). One young lady is SO invasive with her goats. She says she's been breeding NDs for 4 years now, but she doesn't feed her pregnant/lactating does any alfalfa, and she scoffed when I suggested it. Her goats get all-stock sweet feed and costal hay and that's all. She is constantly having issues with her does supposedly "reabsorbing" their babies while pregnant and does routine internal checks on her pregnant does who are still weeks away from kidding!! It makes me very upset because I care about the animals so I am full of guilt when I remain silent, but I also don't want to be "that person" who is constantly throwing in my opinion when I am so new to the goat game.
When one of her does recently gave birth she said that the babies "weren't moving into the birth canal fast enough" and "she just knew something was wrong" so she went in and pulled the babies out by hand! I know people have different views and techniques when it comes to their animals, but this just seems absurd! I am so distressed. Normally I would just break off communications with this type of person but being in the same rural community makes that difficult.
How would you ladies handle a situation like this? My love for goats makes me want to do something, but there isn't much I can do and I guess I just needed to talk to some people who understand.
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You can wear yourself out trying to save the world. Best the share what you do and disassociate if there is just no common ground. But we all try anyway!
I agree with Rachel so very much!
"doing it for years now" means absolutely nothing except incredibly good luck. As for the guy who doesn't feel cleanliness matters, he has been just plain lucky or/and is lying that there has never been a problem. Wonder how he'd feel to be wheeled into an operating room that was filthy.
Regarding the person who does "internal checks" - she is out of her mind! Even our human doctors don't do that - they simply look at the cervix to see if there is any dilation which, of course, is bad enough in itself and I'm certain we would all willingly forego it unless we were having issues.
Sadly, we cannot change anyone's mind who isn't receptive. If they had wanted to learn, they would have already been doing their own research and found out that they are not using good practices and correct them.
I know someone whose neck I would like to wring. It's not in how she cares for her does but how she cares for her milk! She does not wash the udder, does not do strip milk tests before milking. She does have pre-school children who drink the milk raw. I am sincerely hoping there is never a problem because if there is, we might not be allowed to have dairy animals anymore in our state without being certified. She is also someone from whom I bought two dozen eggs. Once. Note I said once. The eggs were filthy, not even the manure brushed off them, one in each carton was rotten - floated to the top of the deep bowl of water, didn't even touch the bottom. (Another friend had bought two dozen earlier and had the same experience so this was not a fluke.) I am horrified for her children's health safety. I am astounded that she thinks not washing the udder is okay or that storing manure-covered eggs in her refrigerator is okay. I don't wash my eggs either but do wipe off any potential manure. If they are badly soiled, I do wash them and then put a "W" on them so I use them first.
I learned a long time ago we can teach someone who is ignorant, but we cannot teach stupid or stubborn. We will drive ourselves insane trying.
Respectfully, I would like to point out that while a person *can* intervene and have "no issues" there are a plethora of complications that can happen when you start invading the birth canal with anything. Regardless of how "hygienic" you are in your process, you are in a barn. There is no contest that bacteria and other pathogens are present in this environment, and can end up introduced into your dam. There are certainly times when intervention is necessary, but for new goat owners, it's necessary to explain in better detail than just "knowing your goats" when those times are. Deb has some very clear, well described times when a new goat owner should intervene. In addition to the risks of infection, you risk causing issues for future deliveries. This is true for humans also. It's not a disputed medical fact that natural, vaginal delivery without intervention is best for both mom AND baby. There are specific times and instances when the risk outweighs the benefits of letting "nature take it's course" but again, they are specific.
There are other things to consider, allowing your goats to deliver without intervention unless absolutely necessary. The stress on dam and kids, the risk of damaging your doe, and the fact that does needing regular intervention might not be the kind of genetics you WANT in your herd.
I hesitate to encourage intervention without Deb's input, because there is much more to it than simply "I've been doing it for years now" and "people know their animals and can tell when it's time to go in." I totally and absolutely feel that this is irresponsible advice, especially for a group that has many new to goats readers.
However, there are definitely WRONG ways to raise them as well. I don't buy the "well, if it works for you I guess it's okay" argument when it's something clearly not okay. Regardless of whether a person considers them livestock, pets, or something in between, animals should receive appropriate care.
I'm not lucky enough to have any goats yet but I am looking forward to it VERY MUCH!!!! I look at the "For Sale" ads every single day and see the pictures of the adorable Nigerian Dwarf kids and want to scoop every one of them up!!! Unfortunately my family and I keep having setbacks in life rather than any spring aheads so "Lord grant me patience...but PLEASE hurry!!!!"
Your story kind of reminds me of the birth of my son in 2009, when I made the mistake of eating a granola bar while driving myself to the hospital at the request of my GYN because I was 2 cm dilated. Of course, your body is too busy preparing to give birth to digest food (I was just SO HUNGRY!!!! :) , so while at the hospital I had to "get rid of" the granola bar :( IMMEDIATELY the nurses were "calling downstairs" requesting some kind of pill "STAT" to "stop my nausea"...I politely asked if I could just finish getting sick into the teeny tiny kidney basin they provided me with then push that baby out. They looked at me like I was insane...while I was thinking the same of them :)
All I personally know about goats is what I've (OBSESSIVELY) read online, but your "friend" not liking the speed of babies entering a birth canal seems absolutely absurd to me. I've given birth two times the natural way but wish that I had just stayed home both times due to experiences in the cold, sterile & inhumane hospital setting. Your instinct of wanting to say something is one my husband and I experienced recently at a fair we brought our children to, a child of about 10-12 yrs old acting in the most horrific ways while her mother was buried in her "dumb-phone" and throwing out insults and smacks to the legs...as a human being, you WANT to say something...as a mother, I wanted to grab that kid and bring her home so I could love her like she deserves to be loved. These are amazing times to live in, aren't they? It's like everyone is lacking humanity :(
Thank you all for sharing your stories, I'm hoping to gain quite a bit of knowledge from all of you!!! Thank you also for reading my rambling, we moved to FL a little less than two years ago, I have zero friends here and rely on random conversations online to fill the void that lecturing my husband and children doesn't fill :) haha!!!
Raising animals is just like raising children. There are many ways and we often are horrified at the practice of some other people. We can't make everyone do what we think is right. Every farm does a little different and the feeding practice for the goats is different on many farms. I have seen animals that seem to be doing well -mine would probably die if they were in that situation because they are very spoiled.
Sometimes we just have to keep quiet because it only causes problems and they aren't going to change their ways. If they are friends or neighbors you would hope they learn by seeing the health of your animals. Remember -some people don't really have a bond or affection for their critters. I see that with a neighbor of ours. I know he thinks I am a nut case with the animals. Who knows -maybe I am! But when I see our goats and sheep running and playing - kicking up their heels I am proud that I am doing the best I can. It pains me to see herds that look so dismal. (I really see this in the sheep)
I have pretty much accepted by now that anyone who talks to me about goats is going to think I'm a know it all! LOL. I know that I'm not really, because there is still so much I don't know and haven't experienced yet. But on the other hand, I still know a lot more than the average person who is either new to goats, doesn't have them, or doesn't do their due research. Therefore when talking to those people, it's almost impossible not to sound like a know it all sometimes.
But I know exactly how you feel. It can be MADDENING. Especially when you give people advice, they don't listen, and lo and behold they have the exact problem you said they would. I recently sold a bottle baby and emphasized several times (even wrote a care sheet for them, per their request) to make food changes gradually. A few days later the kid, who had a clean fecal days before, suddenly had diarrhea. The person had been feeding grain, pine leaves, lots of alfalfa hay, and who knows what else to a kid who had previously only been on grass hay and milk. And then they wonder why his stomach is upset. Thankfully they're trying very hard to learn and sought advice; they were simply new and over eager. I just wish people weren't so insistent on learning things the hard way.
And of course, that's just one example. You should have heard the conversation I had in the TSC this week. It was enough to make me not even want to go back to the store.
I will pass on wisdom my parents gave to me a few months ago. I was feeling upset, because I had just tried to nicely suggest to someone online to have their goats kid in a clean area. He did not take it well and called me things such as an "armchair expert" and "snob." I really was just trying to help. He also talked about how he'd had goats for so long and never had any problems, yada yada. Meanwhile, I had just lost a doe to gangrene mastitis after doing everything I knew to be right. I told my parents I just didn't understand how I could try so hard to do everything right and then have that happen, while people who basically throw their goats in a field to fend for themselves never have any problems. They replied by saying that yes, those people do have problems. If they haven't yet, it will catch up to them. If they act like they don't...they're lying. It's unfortunate that it's often at the cost of the goats, but people do reap what they sow.
And of course anyone who has goats, or any animals, long enough WILL have problems at some point, so those who say they never do are obviously being dishonest.
The bad practices of the person you know will eventually catch up to her, if they haven't already. Hopefully she will learn from it.
I know that people feed differently, but she has SO many problems with her goats, especially birthing, that I just thought I'd suggest the added calcium. It was like talking to a rock. 2 of her does have had retained placentas this year alone and she is always having issues. One of her does has had a persistent uterine infection and I have no doubt it's from all the unnecessary internal checks. You'd think that would make a person question their practices. She does leave out free-choice minerals so that's a relief. It's just very clear by all the problems she has that something is definitely wrong. I almost feel like she enjoys the problems because she gets attention and sympathy from people because it (I know that's a terrible thing to say but I can't think of any other reason to not try to have healthier animals). :( It's so infuriating for me because I would bend over backwards to care for my animals.
I'm sorry you're in this situation. :( It's hard to know someone is doing such things with birthing, especially. God knows human mothers have had to endure such things long enough.
I do want to say, however, that some people do feed differently, and still have success with goats. I have a friend here who has a really neat farm. She has 6 goats that are her breeding/milking goats. She's owned them since they were young weaned kids, and they're at least 6 now. She's never used a dewormer (she puts DE in their minerals on occasion), doesn't use grain or alfalfa at all, doesn't rotate pasture, but has a large area for them to graze in, sort of between a dry lot and pasture (what I would normally consider the worst grazing possibility)...and they're beautiful goats. Every time I've seen them they look great. Often, they look better than mine, and I either dry lot or rotate pasture, feed grain and alfalfa to milking does, do fecals, check eyelids, and use dewormer when necessary. They kid easily, having twins or triplets, and feeding them well. Sometimes I think she's got the Midas touch with animals. :) I also wonder if her ways are going to catch up to her.