I would like to buy the Wormer Rotation Pack from Caprine Supply. It's Safe-Guard (Fenbendazole in the benzimidazole class), IverCare (Ivermectin in the macrocyclic lactone class), and Pyrantel Pamoate (in the pyrimidine class). I read that the Safe-Guard (Fenbendazole) is safe for pregnant does but am not sure about the other two dewormers. Are these all safe for pregnant does and kids?
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Yep, that was the only thing I found that said what he/she says. Most of the info in that post is very "old school" -- and if you seriously dewormed as much as this person suggests, your goats would forever be in a withdrawal period, so you wouldn't be getting much milk from them. As Laura also stated, I've always been told that oral dewormer is the way to go with goats. I'm glad she added the info on the science behind that recommendation.
Patty Meyer said:
Deborah- I think this is what I'd read before. http://goat-link.com/content/view/58/46/ Thanks for your input on this. It was confusing me even more, and making it harder for me to decide how I would manage things. I wouldn't want to use a wormer any more than absolutely necessary, but if this bit of misinformation were true, then I'd be afraid to use it if they really did need it. All this is sometimes just too much! :)
Laura- Thanks for further explaining things. :) It's so great to have your input here.
I also have a doe with a chronic cough. Since I got her in May 2011, there has been no change in her cough or her condition. She has a cough (either an occasional single cough or a short burst of coughing) and occasional slight runny nose. She also makes almost no noise. A very quiet bleat is all I've ever heard out of her. There are no other symptoms. I'd wondered about lung worms, so researched it as much as I could. I found out that the only way to detect lung worms is through a Baermann Technique fecal sample or a tracheal wash. I learned about the Baermann Technique here. In the sample you will be looking for the stage 1 larva. They're about .23 to .3 mm long. You can learn more about parasites and other goat biology at this site.
This cough seems to irritate me MUCH more that it does Starlight. It is so agravating to be unable to determine if I should be concerned or be doing something more for her. :/
@Deborah- That picture you discribed of the goat rib cage full of blood sounds very familiar, but I can't find what I'd read now. Perhaps that was it?
Laura Roe said:
Thank you Rachel! The dosage chart is exactly what I was looking for.
Here's an article on how to break down copasure. Deb just puts it over her goat's grains, and they eat it fine, FYI. You don't have to put it in a marshmallow to get them to eat it. http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html
I'm so glad you joined this discussion, Laura. Thank you for your input.
Would you, or Deborah, recommend the 2nd edition of Goat Medicine by Mary C. Smith and David M. Sherman? Would this be a wise purchase or a waste of money?
Also, one of my doelings may be copper deficient as her hind legs have recently started to become a reddish color but otherwise she looks great. I feed Golden Blend Minerals free-choice but would you suggest Copasure? What amount would you suggest for a ND since the label is for cattle?
Copper boluses can be helpful for two reasons- 1) if you think you do need to supplement copper, although it isn't a highly available form thus not readily absorbed and 2) if you are trying to target/reduce barberpole worm. The copper oxide wire has been shown to reduce barberpole (haemonchus) load in the abomasum because it gets stuck in the folds and acts locally to kill the parasite but it is primarily more effective in the younger animals. Great alternative to dewormer in younger stock if barberpole is the problem. Make sure you give the correct dose as the bolus comes in a size that treats a 150 pound calf :)
I do think ventilation could be a contributing factor but I would investigate your copper issues. For my herd the purina mineral mix isn't enough copper (or selenium for that matter) but again your area is unique and you need to know your other mineral levels especially molybdenum. I think sunflower seeds have selenium, maybe zinc, but not sure on that. Maybe others know the answer to that one? I have given up to a clove a day of garlic if I am wanting to help support the immune system. I have seen in one horse (that was treated with one clove garlic daily for a week) a pile of worms come out with a bowel movement but garlic isn't a reliable dewormer in every situation. But it doesn't hurt them!
Sheila Kirkholm said:
Thanks for your input Laura. I do remember that Spur's cough started after winter last year and the thought went through my mind that maybe I had kept their shed too shut up. It was a lot colder last winter and I had to just let their bedding build up on the wood floor and clean it out in the spring when it thawed. This winter has been totally different and I've been able to clean it out frequently. Could the cough been caused by the poor ventilation and just hung on? I lock them up inside every night, just to make sure they are safe from wild animals.
I've thought of ordering the copper boluses, they don't have them at the local feed store. I hear people say they also feed sunflower seeds, does this help with the zinc?
I'm not familiar with FAMACHA, so will do some research on that.
I purchased some probiotics the other day, I guess I'll go ahead and give some to Bella and Spur.
What does the garlic do and in what form do you give it to them? Same question concerning Vit. E please.
Right now, they get Purina Goat Mineral free choice, but from what you and Debra have said, that may not be enough I take it. I'll read back through your info and see what I can learn about the herbal treatment.
Thanks again.
Laura Roe said:
Hi Sheila, I too have made the decisions you have described so can totally empathize with you and how you made your decisions. One tricky thing I have come across is that mineral deficiency (copper in particular) can really mimic a parasite problem- dull coat, hair loss, dry skin. So, one way to distinguish the two is to run a fecal egg count (FEC) but that test also has its limitations. Unfortunately the FEC isn't always an accurate representation of the parasite load if the parasites are not shedding eggs at that moment. But, in general, that is the best to go on. FAMACHA will also give you an idea of anemia that could be due to the barberpole worm- but there are other less common causes of anemia as well. So, the combo of tests is great IMO to at least confirm a parasite problem before reaching for the dewormer.
I am sure you guys have discussed copper at length on this forum; if so you know signs of copper deficiency include but are not limited to poor hair coat, dry skin, rusting of black hair color, lowered immune function as a start. Copper is bound up by molybdenum so if your soil and/or water are high in molybdenum your goats will not be getting the same ppm that is labeled in your mineral mix. I believe iron and sulfur also effect copper but moly is the big one. The most definitive way to know if your goats are at a good copper level is to submit liver tissue and that can be difficult unless one dies or you are willing to pay a vet to take liver biopsies. Alternatively, you can call a county extension agent to find out the mineral levels in your soil and/or water- if you know you are low in copper or high in moly you know your goats will need more copper than what comes in the mix. Selenium is another big one- you need to know if your area is deficient, normal, or high- I am in a deficient area and need to supplement extra selenium. Again, a liver sample tells you that info; or a soil test can give you regional information. Anyway, I can't stress enough how important the free choice well balanced (for your area) mineral is for dairy goats. I m sure you are very aware of that, though!
I too have wondered about zinc deficiency when I see the dull hair coats and dry flakes- also wonder about vit E and about Vit A. Vit E is easy to feed on a cracker or poured onto feed; I like supplementing vit A through veggies naturally high in Vit A. not sure the answer there to the zinc question but it doesn't hurt my goats to up their veggies. I also give my goats camelina meal- great source of omega fatty acids that is grown locally in Bozeman.
The chronic coughing is something I too deal with in my small herd. In the past I have brought goats in from other parts of the country (I like a novel gene pool) and when I have done so the stress of moving has invariably allowed for infectious respiratory bugs to gain a foothold. Most of my herd has easily dealt with it but every now and then I will get one that hangs on to the cough. I don't know if it is strictly inflammatory at that stage? These chronic ones are never off food or experiencing a fever. Infectious cause seems lower on the list. How is the ventilation in their shelter? Is there lowered immune function due to mineral imbalance? Very possible. So I keep offering the minerals and start some herbal therapies based on what I see in the particular goat. I like using probiotics for digestive support as well as overall health/immune support. And garlic!
Yes, it is true that the snails can carry a certain goat lung worm called muellerius capillarus. I am not at all familiar with it- assume a lab could recover it on a FEC- but again I have no experience diagnosing or treating it.
I hope this gives you an idea of the thought process I use when making decisions in my own herd. My general disclaimer to this group is that I am not offering medical advice, only ideas I use on my own animals. I don't have a valid client/patient relationship with anyone on an email list group so cannot make medical recommendations. But I do love to share ideas even if I don't have the answers! By all means, do call the vets that you mentioned- hopefully one will be an informed small ruminant practitioner.
Ok, now that I have done everything wrong with my goats is there any way to fix them. I bought 4 ND kids almost 2 years ago from healthy herds in northeast MN. They have been in a pen built out of cattle panels with clover, grass, etc. growing in it. Pen is not overly big, maybe not big enough for number of goats? Anyway, Spur, a wether, was the first to start coughing, no other symptoms, then, Bella, a doe, started coughing, no other symptoms. I thought maybe they had lungworms, since they had this cough. I called one of the previous owners and she said she had never had this problem. I dewormed them with Valbazen, still continued to cough. Did more reading on the internet, couldn't find a vet, plus we are new to the area, ended up deworming them with Ivermectin, still continued with the cough. Spur also had a rough looking hair coat, which made me think parasites. Over time, Spur developed a flemmy cough and coughs up snot( comes out his nose), I thought maybe he had developed a secondary respiratory infection, so treated him with Nuflor this past Sept. The treatment did not change a thing, he still has the cough and the snot. In the mean time, Bella, who still has a dry cough, started losing hair around her eyes, muzzle and now on top of her back. She has very dry skin and a whitish, yellowish kind of crust under her tail around the hairline. The hair loss on top of her back is the latest, it looks like she is shedding, but when I rubbed it, all the hair came out and there are big white flakes of skin. None of my goats have been itching or rubbing a lot. I treated them all with Ivomec pour-on for cattle because I thought it might be mange. I gave 1 cc/22 lbs, 3 times, 10 days apart, just like you guys say you're NOT supposed to do. So, now the question is, what do I do, I feel like I've pretty much done everything wrong, and I'm worried that they may never be right again. I did read that zinc deficiency has symptoms very similar to mange. Who knows, I think I've done enough damage to my poor goats. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I do now have numbers of 2 vets in the area, do I call one of them?
I also notice little snails on things, and had read that lungworms can develop from the goats eating the snails, anyway, that's one of the reasons I thought lungworms.
I had goats in NE for years, but they were kept in smaller pens that eventually became more like dry lots, when they had eaten all the grass. What are your thoughts on parasites in goats that are allowed to browse versus more of a dry lot situation.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
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