This is our second kidding season (all 100% NDG)...so still learning. The newest does to our herd kidded here last year shortly after their arrival, so they had been through the trauma of travel and getting used to a new home. We lost several at birth, and more later...still not completely sure why. We are hoping this year will be better. So far, out of 7 of the does, we have had 18 kids, with only 2 stillbirths (the last 2 of quads from a doe that had lost some the year before; last had to be pulled...very traumatic). I have been recording all kid weights since birth this time, but need to know if due to the data and the behavior I'm seeing, if I should be supplementing with milk replacer/cow's milk/etc.
Kid Weights spreadsheet (shared Google Sheet)
The kids are 4-12 days old as of today. I see their moms' more often than not refusing to feed them. I have also noticed several of the kids grinding their teeth today, which I've heard is a sign of pain. Why would a kid so young be in pain? At some point with last year's kids, they were grinding their teeth a lot as well. The vet thought it was because they were getting ulcers from nibbling on their mom's grain. These kids are nibbling at grain pellets and hay, but it seems more like play and immitating the adults rather than truly eating it. Also, from what I've read, that's normal for young kids to nibble like that.
Their poop has seemed normal, developing from dark, tarry stools at birth, to fluffy, sticky, yellow baby poops. I haven't seen evidence of diarrhea. The kids are all very playful and run and jump to their heart's content. But, they also chase after the does (thier mom or anyone's) trying to get milk. They suckle on our pant legs and boot straps, and seem to be looking for a meal most times when we hold them. Maybe most of the behaviors mentioned are totally normal, but the teeth grinding worries me.
I went ahead tonight and tried them on some warmed whole cow's milk from a slow-flow dollar store bottle. Only two of them would latch on (Autumn and Milkyway). One of these had definitely been teeth grinding earlier today. Both have been gaining some weight daily. The rest weren't really interested and just wanted their moms.
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I wanted to give an update on these mom's and babies...its been a while! It seems like any time I have goat realated issues and get advice, we have some kind of family event/ emergency and the past couple weeks have been no exception.
With everything going on, I didn't get the kids (the ones that weren't gaining as much) separated and exclusively bottle fed. And, yes, like you said supplementing here and there just wasn't working. It seemed like only the kids who were already gaining OK would even try to take the bottle, while the ones most in need would reject it. In the meantime, however, I started feeding the moms just alfalfa hay, no more coastal. They love it! And I have gradually stepped up their amount of grain pellets to 1lb per doe. Of course, they don't argue about that either. Several things I've noticed since the feeding changes:
It really does look like I wasn't feeding them enough (*embarrassing*). This change in feeding has been great for them, and they seem to be producing more milk. Despite not separating the kids, they have been gaining each day with a few days as exceptions. My scale doesn't seem capable of showing two decimal places, so I'm hoping the day where they gained 0.2lb is closer to 0.25, but I'm not sure. All of the kids from my newest accquired moms still act hungry though, suckling our fingers all the time despite their moms clearly having milk available. The 2 kids I have from one of the first does we got (so a different group from a different herd) haven't had issues gaining and don't act hungry...ever. All of the kids have been nibbling on the alfalfa and grain pellets, but I'm sure would prefer more milk from their moms. I check the does' udders, and they seem fine...warm, but not hot, looks normal, milk can be expressed. So, if they have the milk available, why does it seem like they're being stingy, or am I just still too new to all this to understand what's really going on?
I've kept the spreadsheet with the kids' weights updated.
Hi Rebecca
You may still want to consider bottles for the kids that are really struggling to keep up with weight gain.
Clumpy poop is likely a combination of the increased water intake along with the changes in diet. I would consider adding in a good probiotic. I really like the powdered ProBios.
Once poop gets normal again (should only take a few days) I would continue to increase the amount of grain moms with triplets are getting and monitor the moms with twins. By the time a kid weighs 10#, it is requiring about 32oz (2#) a day in milk. Mom needs at least 1# of grain for every 3-4# of milk she produces. So just adjust accordingly :)
I currently have a FF with triplets that seems to always have milk, but her kids are falling behind in weight gain. I see them nursing frequently, but they are just not gaining like they should. Fortunately I have been successful getting them all to take a bottle while still on mom. I am currently giving them each an 8 ounce bottle every morning. As they gain weight, I will adjust that amount up to keep their curve of gain in check.
~Tammy
Thanks, Tammy. I'll give the ProBios a try, as well as bottle feeding some more if possible, and later increase the triplet moms' grain.
I just realized that you attended my parasite class last fall =) Small world- LOL!
Me and mom did, and it was great. Thanks again. I'll have to email you regarding your last newsletter.
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to try bottle feeding again today. Hopefully in a little bit.
Deborah,
Thank you for the quick response. Yes, they really did fight the bottle. I can't find actual Pritchard teats around here, just the plastic ones. I've tried those several times last year, and could never cut them right...either nothing could come out, or a flood. I tried a clear rubber lamb teat from Tractor supply, but none of them last night wanted that one. The only one any of them would try was the human baby bottle.
I'll review the article again, and the video was a great resource (thanks for that), however, if you're only trying to supplement their milk supply rather than replacing the mom's supply completely, are there other timing or quantity recommendations?
I guess it sounds more like the recommendation with kids that aren't gaining enough is total replacement with bottle feedings. If that's the case, would I have to completely separate those kids from their moms?
I'll have to check if my scale can measure and report to 2 decimal places. For most of the kids so far, they have only gone maybe 2 days without gaining, then started gaining 0.2 lbs again. If those were your kids, do think you would be bottle feeding them? There is one, Blackberry, that seems to have not gained in 4 days! However, I've seen her nursing and she is very playful, so I'm surprised about her weights.
I've noticed the teeth grinding when they are standing around, or especially when I've picked them up to carry them to the scale for their daily weigh-ins. Other than this, they seem to act normal, just as playful as can be right now. The weather isn't bad, around the 60's, and will even be up to 70 today. They sleep in a closed barn at night, which keeps the temperature about 5 degrees warmer than outside. So, I know they can't be getting too cold. I just don't know what's bothering them. Can stress cause teeth grinding? I have 3 stalls, about 12' x 9' each. I have 3 does and 7 kids in the first, 3 does and 7 kids in the second, and 2 does and 2 kids in the third. During the day, all the goats in the first two stalls are let out into a small, dry yard they share until we can fence off a bigger, kid-safe yard, and later some pastures. The goats in the last stall have their own little yard since they are from my initial group of goats and I haven't combined them yet. I haven't noticed any teeth grinding from these 2 kids (sisters) in the last stall, or from their older siblings when they were born. Any teeth grinding has only been from the kids from the newer moms last year and now this year.
It is more complicated if you're supplementing rather than completely bottle feeding. It is also harder to get kids to take the bottle if mom is an available option for them. There are some kids that I call "happy to be starving" because I had a couple that literally starved themselves to death in the years before I learned that sometimes the only way you will get them to take a bottle is to take them away from mom entirely. They were all happy and bouncy -- until they weren't. And that can happen overnight. In fact, I've always found the starving kids first thing in the morning, probably because I haven't been out there for about 12 hours, and they nurse less overnight than during the day.
It looks like Blackberry is one of triplets. Not gaining anything in four days means she is on her way to starving. If her mom is a first freshener, she may not be able to make enough milk to feed three, especially if she is still growing herself. The other two kids from that mom have not been gaining the last couple of days. The consumption of kids doubles within the first two weeks, so it's not uncommon for this happen between the first and second week. The first time I almost lost a kid to starvation was a two-week-old doeling. She was bouncing around like normal until I walked out there one morning and found her under the heat lamp unable to even lift her head. All of those kids need to be supplemented ASAP.
Harmonica's triplets are also not gaining like they should be, although everyone has days when they're not gaining well. For the triplets, it is likely that the moms just can't make that much milk, but they should be able to make enough for twins, even if they are first fresheners. How old are all of these mamas, and what do they weigh? What are you feeding the moms?
I never say anything is impossible, but it's highly unlikely kids will wind up getting too much milk, even if you are supplementing. And if you're weighing them, you know who you need to be supplemented. It's ideal if the ones with low weight gain will take a bottle, and you basically just try to get as much into them as possible -- up to what they would be consuming if they were completely bottle fed. We've never had a kid start to gain an extraordinary amount of weight when we did that. They are usually still gaining the 4 ounces a day. I assume that if they are getting plenty of milk with the bottle, they will ultimately nurse less -- even though it doesn't look like it because you can give them a bottle, and they'll run for mom's teat the second you put them down on the ground.
I have started feeding all alfalfa hay to the lactating does, and am starting to increase the amount of feed pellets, but didn't want to do that too fast. I think the change in diet might already be helping the moms. I hate to say it, but I guess I've been starving the moms without meaning to. It seems like so many sources out there are so anti-grain, that it scares and confuses a newbie like me as to how much, if any grain to feed. Your recommendation though is in line with the feeding guide from the company, but it can also be confusing becasue people tend to assume everyone keeps only standard size goats and not address that quantities might need to be adjusted for mini breeds so I'm never sure I can trust them.
While they are loving the alfalfa, there is even more wasted hay than with the coastal. While the feeder below can make wasting a lot easier, they didn't waste as much coastal as with the alfalfa in the same feeder. They just pick through looking for the leafy bits. I had assumed they would eat those stems, but they leave them behind. Are my does just super picky? Is this what your goats do to their alfalfa?
Here they have eaten up the little leaves and are rooting around for more, ignoring the alfalfa stems surrounding them and covering the floor. I have one hay feeder with smaller openings, but the stems are so long that they have a hard time getting anything out of that one even if we are careful not to pack the hay in.
If the long stemy part is so good for their digestion, but they refuse to eat it, would they be better off returning to an alfalfa pellet (but alot more than I was previously feeding) and coastal hay for the long stemmed part of their diet?
This is totally normal, and it's why people usually buy second or third-cut alfalfa. The stems in the first cutting are bigger and less palatable. Your hay is a beautiful green, but it does look like the stems are pretty big. A common complaint about goats is that they waste hay. One of the great things about having cows is that we'd take the leftover hay from the goats and give it to the cows, and they'd eat it up, so nothing ever went to waste.
It is not just the stems that are better for their digestion. When they eat hay, they have to chew more than when they eat pellets.
Anyone who tells you not to feed grain in the form of goat feed to dairy goats is clueless about the nutritional needs of modern dairy goats. No, you should not be feeding them plain grains like oats and barley because that's low protein and not helpful, but a 16% protein goat feed is really important for dairy goats.
The instructions to feed 1# of goat feed for every 3# of milk produced takes into consideration the size of the goat because the production of a ND is a lot less than a standard-size goat. A Nigerian will only produce about 4 to 6 pounds of milk, whereas a Saanen will produce 12 to 16 pounds of milk, so it will need a lot more goat feed. And if you feed a Nigerian like a Saanen, then yes, it will likely have some serious problems.
Not sure yet how I'm going to be able to separate them from their mom's just yet. We'll have to build another pen in the barn, I guess. That's going to be rough on the kids, but better than starving to death.
None of the does are first fresheners this year. Also, I'm still not sure the best things and amounts to feed each group of goats (bucks/wethers, dry does, pregnant/lactating does, kids). Right now, these mom's get alfalfa pellets in the morning, Kalmbach 16% non-GMO pellets with some whole oats (about a handful per doe) at night, and costal hay 24/7. They do not have any pasture/browse at the moment, so essentially they are on a dry lot until we get some fencing done. I'm going to try using alfalfa hay instead of pellets (not sure how much to give), as some of the ladies seem to choke on the pellets even though I get a small 5/32" size pellet. I need to do some calculations to see if I'm feeding enough of the feed.
Does' ages, weights, and very brief kidding history is in this sheet. They are all at least 2, and on at least their 2nd kidding.
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