I am new to goats (I've had ours for about a year) and trying to decide what to do with our Nigerian Dwarf bucklings, and, especially our runts. We have 5 bucklings (all could be registered, but I haven't done the paperwork yet) and trying to work out what we want to do with them. We do not, however, wish to sell any for slaughter. One is a runt, 5 months old ("Wee Lamb," born 3/6/23), from triplets. His sister, Princess, is also a runt, but their brother, Root, is big and strong. I'm wondering if I should castrate Lamb, and I'm wondering if I should ever breed Princess. His dam was sold to me bred, so I had no control over her prenatal care. I imagine this comes into play, but I'm guessing genetics can play a part too. Being triplets, Lamb and Princess didn't get as much milk as their larger brother did, and neither would accept any kind of nipple or other milk/replacer. I also tried holding on to their mom while they tried to nurse (didn't go well at all), as well as other does in milk. Lamb would steal milk whenever he could sneak it from other does. I also believe we had Sore Mouth in the herd, which may have casued some issues. At this point, I think they are what they are, tiny, and I'm not sure if I can do anything for it.
How likely is it that Lamb, if kept intact, would have issues being a productive stud and would help to produce more runts? And, I imagine, it will take Princess quite a while (> 1 year) to get anywere near a "safe" weight to be bred. So, similarly, what are her chances, even with good prenatal care (I hope I'm providing that) that if I wait to breed her once she's acheived a healthy weight, of having birthing issues or unthrifty/"runty" kids?
I also do not know anything yet about juding goat confirmation, so I'm not sure if they shouldn't be used for breeding anyway just based on confirmation. I don't want to "breed problems," so I'm trying to learn what to look for in them so I don't continue bad genetics and cause harm to the goats.
Root is the tan and white buckling on the left, and Lamb is the chocolate with white in the middle in the photo linked above.
Unfortunately, I haven't been tracking their weights, but I got their weights today: Lamb 12.4 lb, Princess 12.6 lb, Root 19.2 lb. By contrast, a younger doeling born on 3/19/23, weighed 17.2 lb today, and a younger buckling born on 3/25/23 weighed 17 lb today.
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UPDATE:
I wish I could say that after all the planning I had treated the little bucklings with Cordid, but it didn't happen for one reason or another. I did feed the one bag of medicated feed, and they did put on some weight. However, they are still small, but seem healthy.
As of 2/4/24 (born around beginning of March 2023):
I want to wether Lamb for sure, the one that started this whole question of to castrate or not. But, with the rest still being so small at about a year...? They seem happy and healthy, just small. Lamb's sister, Princess (a.k.a. The Impossibly Tiny Goat), is now 28.6 lb after receiving more grain in her diet and seems just as healthy as the rest of the doelings her age, just smaller. The rest of the doelings are around 34 lb.
Most male goats should be castrated because we don't need that many bucks. One buck can breed dozens of does, so most wind up as pet wethers, brush eaters, or meat. It is easier to sell pet wethers because more people want pets rather than bucks.
Does should not be bred until they are at least 40#, and that's assuming they are less than about 18 months old because we are assuming they will continue to grow through pregnancy. A doe that is 28 pounds at a year will probably never be big enough to breed. Coccidia can permanently damage the lining of the intestines so that she will never grow to her full potential, so if she were bred, it would likely end in a c-section (or death) because she has the genetics to grow normal-sized kids.
Deborah, thank you for your response.
Does it make a difference if males are castrated later, like when they are a yearling compared with if I had done it when they were younger? Its such a shame on multiple levels since they would make some very pretty babies, which goes for little Princess too. However, seeing some of the kidding issues their mothers and aunts have gone through also being on the smaller side, it makes sense to not breed these smaller does. I wonder if those does had trouble with coccidia when they were kids. I didn't own them then to know if that was the case.
This brings up another question, what to do with does that shouldn't be bred. I guess the answer is basically the same as the boys, minus the proceedure...Keep them only as pets (far away from bucks) and brush clearers (is that a word?). This is bad news for my herd, as many of my newer does are on the smaller side. It sounds like I have some tough decisions to make after this season.
Males can be castrated at any age, although your only option for doing it yourself would be to use a Burdizzo or Side Crusher or other emasculator that crushes the cord that goes to the testicles. Otherwise you'd have to have a vet do it surgically, which will be expensive because of the anesthesia.
A hysterectomy on a goat is unfortunately challenging and expensive -- not like spaying a cat, so it's important to make sure they are not anywhere close to bucks. In the early years we wound up with a doe that was about the size of a six month old, and we kept her for her whole life, which was 13 years, and managed to avoid any accidental breedings for her. I was afraid to sell her because I didn't want anyone thinking they could make teacup goats. And you never know if the person you sell them to will actually keep them forever. People's lives and priorities change.
Yes, I am wanting to get a Burdizzo, or more likely, the Side Crusher. Our vet didn't use anesthesia or pain meds, as some are old fashioned about that kind of thing. This is how I remembered it from vet tech school too. I understand goats don't handle general anesthesia well and are a real risk, and that pain meds also present a challenge because of their metabolism. But, I had hoped for some kind of pain medication anyway...there was none. I do not wish to go that route again. It sounds like the emasculators are the most humane way to go.
Due to the anesthetic risk and cost, I wouldn't consider hysterectomy, and do worry about someone I sell to being responsible about not breeding. You make a good point about the reality of goats continuing to go to other owners even after you sell them. Its a tough thing we'll have to give much consideration to. I can't keep every goat though.
Tammy, thank you for your response.
We started out a year ago by taking over a herd of 3 does, 1 buck, and 2 weathers from the same owner who had, with the exception of 1 of the weathers, gotten the goats from the same breeder. These goats were well cared for and looked very healthy from the start. We bred them, and their kids born this February all see very healthy and way, way bigger than these newer kids that were born in March. All of these new kids came from additions to our herd (buck, 7 bred does) that we purchased from a family that had to move quickly and couldn't take the goats with them. I am not 100% sure of their diet before they came to us, but it probably mostly consisted of a lower protein all-stock pellet feed and coastal hay. I'm not even sure that they had any minerals most of the time, and I'm not sure if they were on any browse. Once they got here, we've had them browsing every day, access to coastal hay all the time, Purina loose minerals, some chopped alfalfa for the does and kids in the morning, and Purina Goat Chow grain for the does in the evening (I've been reducing this as they started producing less and now they get very little).
Its been a real struggle with all of the kids. These new does never seemed like produced much milk, and we lost quite a few kids. I didn't completely separate kids because I thought that might kill them for sure between the stress of separation and lack of nutrition. However, we lost them anyway. I tried nipple after nipple, holding the mom for them to nurse, holding other moms for them to nurse, different brands of replacer, fresh whole cow's milk...I just couldn't get them to eat no matter what. I tried giving them a little grain when they were younger, but the vet said they shouldn't have it and it might give them ulcers. They kept getting hay bellies becuase that's what they could get as browse became more sparse in the fenced area. We don't have permanently fenced, maintained pastures yet. So, we struggle to keep adjusting and creating new, temporary areas for them to browse in. Our land is very hilly, with very sandy soil and mix of native grasses and woods (Cross Timbers region of north central Texas). We are also in a drought with an extra hot summer, even for Texas, so between hungry goats and thirsty plant life, its hard to keep up.
This is a photo of the 2 does from our original herd and 3 of their kids (a fourth is hiding) that were born in February. I didn't weigh any of them yesterday, but each could easily be around 30 lb, and are the size I would expect maybe of a 6 month old.
As you pointed out, it sounds like the new kids from the new does, even the bigger ones, are very much on the small side. Several of the new does are daughters or grandaughters of the new herd queen, and seem rather small themselves. And several of these does lost kids during birth, either as breech or still births. This further worries me about these new small does as well as the futures of the kids they delivered this past March. There are, however, at least 2 kids from this bunch (none that I mentioned before) that seem much bigger and healthier. So, maybe there's some hope?
I do not yet know how to judge FAMACHA. I have rarely seen diarrhea from any of them. I have occasionally seen clumped poo instead of distinct pellets. I know we have issues with our well water that we haven't resolved yet - high calcium and sulfur at the least. I've seen hair loss, hair "rusting," and itchiness in the absence of lice or mites. I've given them all Copasure boluses 3 months ago and was seeing some improvements since I was suspecting secondary Copper deficiency. It might be time for another dose. So far, their fecal parasite egg counts through the vet have been negligible.
The new barn should be finished soon, and we will be permanently fencing several pastures so that we can start them on rotations, giving them more browse and room than these "temporary" areas. The two doe/kid herds have not been combined yet since I want to get more blood testing done before hand. The grown males are kept separate so we can do planned breeding, and the young bucklings are in their own area for now with a grown wether for company.
Hi there again!
So sorry for the tardy response. I have been out all day long.
I am also in Central Texas- just east of Austin, so I know the frustration with keeping everyone fed and hydrated during this drought and heat wave!
It sounds like you very much ended up with a batch of poorly managed goats. Sometimes people just do not know any better =(
Still births, runts, and poor milk production definately can be attributed to poor nutrition and lack of minerals. Reading through all of your notes, it sounds like you have done your best with what you started with-poor little things.
It is absolutely ok for baby goats to eat grain. My kids start nibbling what mama is eating when they are just a couple of days old and are actively eating it by the time they are about 4 weeks old. Grain is an extra source of concentrated protein and vitamins/minerals as they grow.
Checking FAMACHA is easy once you get the hang of it. The hardest part is getting the goats used to it- stabilize the head positioning one thumb abve and one below the eye. Slide the upper eye lid down over the eye and gently push in and down. That will cause the lower eyelid tissue to bulge out a little. The pull that bulgy area down to see the 'meaty' area of the inner lower eye lid. Don't hold too long or you will get a falsely darkened mucosa. The color should be dark pink to pink. Whitish pink or white need dewormer treatment. Right now, there should be very few worm larva hatching out on our pastures, but 'most' of the adults inside the goats will live a solid 3 months or so before dying of old age- so there could be a worm burden from before it got too hot. The FAMACHA score will tell you if they have a load of Barber Pole worms- the blood suckers.
WHat I am more concerned about is the possibility of sub clinical coccidiosis. These tiny parasites invade the intestinal lining and create an environment that decreases the amount of nutrition the goats are able to absorb, no matter how much they are eating. 'Hay Belly' is usually a sign of some sort of parasite burden, and these kids are definately very skinny with big bellies. The clumpy poop and any diarrhea are also signs of potential parasite load. The most common parasite invasion for very young goats is usually coccidia. Adults and goats over 6 months of age have typically developed an immunity to them. They carry some around, but do not usually get an over growth unless something really compromises their immune system.
I'm not very clear on what the kids are currently eating? I would definately boost their nutrition. You want high protein for now, so that will be goat grain (get one with ammonium chloride in it) and I would also put them on alfalfa hay. Start out slow with the grain, and work up to the recommended amount on the package for growing kids. The boys will need to be weaned off the grain and alfalfa as soon as their growth slows because both of these can contribute to urinary calculi if the extra nutrients are not being efficiently utilized by the growing body. Purina loose goat minerals are great!
The other thing I would do is to consider treating for coccidiosis. If their FAMACHA scores are poor, they will also need to be dewormed. I can't imagine that this would be a scour worm problem- it's just too hot and dry for them in general, and you are not seeing bouts of diarrhea either. Also start weighing them to see if your changes improve weight gain.
If you recheck fecals- be sure to get a VERY fresh sample, squeeze all air from the baggie the sample is in, and refrigerate as soon as you collect it. Transport to the vet with an ice pack to keep the samples cool. Both oxygen and the ambient air temperature are signals for the eggs to start hatching, so they will not show up as a correct count on the fecal.
I honestly do not know what the future holds for these babies. They are the size of 6-wk old kids at 5 months of age, and that is super concerning. My fear is that they will be continually plagued with illness and parasite burdens due to malnutrition and suppressed immunity.
Please keep us posted on these sweet little babies.
Tammy
Here are a few resources for you. Lots of helpful information here-
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/preventing-coccidiosis/
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/raising-baby-goats/
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/using-dewormers-correctly/
Tammy
Hi there Rebecca
You definately have need for concern with these kiddos. They are all extremely underweight. Even the younger kids that weigh more.
A healthy, well nourished ND kid should weigh 20# by the time they are 10-12 weeks old. Even runts can catch up to and pass the typical weight gain curve for their breed, but most of the time they must be completely removed from the dam and made a full time bottle baby to do so. It is a rare occasion that a kid will take a bottle if left with it's dam, even if it is starving to death. Considering how small the bigger kid is, it sounds like this mom was not making much milk at all.
When babies don't get enough milk, they have sickly immune systems and become much more susceptible to parasites. So you may have some parasite issues going on as well.
As far as making decisions for breeding, it is hard to answer that right now. A goat should be very nutritionally sound if used for breeding because it's very hard on even a buck They will typically lose weight during rut and can even have a drop in immunity. Breeding a tiny doe not only exposes her to these same things, but also puts her at risk of death due to complications with birth. A sound healthy breeding doe should be 60# at minimum before having kids
I have some questions for you
What is their current diet? And if different, what have they eaten and how much, in the past?
What is the color of the inside lower eye lid (FAMACHA score) Red, dark pink, pink, whitish pink, or whitish
Have they had any diarrhea?
Are they always in this dry lot area, or do they graze out on pasture as well?
Tammy