Progeny Question

[Kare]

Someone I know is considering a doe that has the same buck in both sides of her pedigree.  He is a grand-sire on one side and a great-grand-sire on the other side.  This could be ok, except she has done a little research on this buck and his progeny and has a question.

1. He mysteriously died younger than he should have, he was tested and no one knows why he died.  
2. He was having trouble breeding toward the end and then one of his doelings in those last months had double teats.
3. His other progeny from earlier in his life seems to be very nice.

Is this a reason to not purchase the doe?  Could she pass the double teats on to her progeny or could that be related to his being sick/injured and not be hereditary?

 

Thanks,

 

Kare

[Kimberly Martin]

I have another progeny question.  The ADGA site has a wonderful tool to show the inbreeding % of future breedings. The problem is that both potential parents have to be registed with ADGA. What if the buck (or doe) is only registered AGS.  Is there a "formula" somewhere to figure this out on our own with their pedigrees?

 

IE: I have two pregnant does. One doe's father is the sire of the other's kids to be next month. This means I can't keep a buckling, as they'd be too closely related? Do breeders ever trade when they find themselves in this situation?

[Kare]

Thank you.  I'm sure this information will be useful to her.

Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:

That's not a typical symptom of copper deficiency, but that also does not sound genetic. It really sounds like something in his environment, such as a nutritional deficiency, poisoning, or a disease, especially since he threw nice kids in his early years. Sounds like he went downhill for some reason.

Kare at Chaverah Farm said:

I forgot to mention that he was going lame in his front legs sometimes.  Does that change anything?  Or is that still possibly copper related?

[Deborah Niemann-Boehle]

That's not a typical symptom of copper deficiency, but that also does not sound genetic. It really sounds like something in his environment, such as a nutritional deficiency, poisoning, or a disease, especially since he threw nice kids in his early years. Sounds like he went downhill for some reason.

Kare at Chaverah Farm said:

I forgot to mention that he was going lame in his front legs sometimes.  Does that change anything?  Or is that still possibly copper related?

[Deborah Niemann-Boehle]

Unfortunately, I don't. I keep saying that I'm going to put it on my website, because I wind up re-writing the same stuff a lot!

Rachel Whetzel said:

Deb, do you have your posts about copper listed in one place? I'm very interested to read them all...

[Kare]

I forgot to mention that he was going lame in his front legs sometimes.  Does that change anything?  Or is that still possibly copper related?

Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:

I wouldn't take any of this into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy the doe. Everything you just said could have meant that the buck was copper deficient. ALL of those problems were rampant in our herd before we realized we had a copper deficiency problem, and it never would have been discovered if I had not finally insisted that a deceased doe have her liver checked for copper. They don't normally check livers for anything here in Illinois, so all my necropsies were coming back with parasites listed as the cause of death. Maybe other states are different. When I said I wanted that doe's liver checked, the vet said I was wasting my money, and it came back 4.8 ppm -- normal is 25 to 150 ppm, so I don't know how she survived as long as she did. Copper deficiency can also cause anemia, just like iron deficiency, so I personally think that a lot of deaths get attributed to parasites incorrectly, because anemia is the way parasites kill a goat. I had two bucks die one day, and on the initial necropsy the pathologist said that it wasn't parasites, but in the end, that's what they ruled as the cause based on anemia. I had four different vets tell me copper deficiency was impossible if I was feeding a "complete" feed and free choice minerals, but obviously they were wrong. I'll shut up now about copper because I've posted lots on here in the past on that topic. I'm not saying that this buck was definitely copper deficient, because no one will ever know at this point. But I am saying that there is a TON that we don't know about goats. Selenium deficiency causes a lot of the same problems. The cause of teat defects is widely debated, but based on my experience, as each year passes with no more teat defects here, I am seriously believing that they're related to nutritional deficiencies. One thing I have noticed is that at least in my herd, the bucks need about twice as much extra copper as the does, so I don't think that there is any single mineral mix that fits the needs of every goats.

[Rachel Whetzel at MigMog Acres]

Deb, do you have your posts about copper listed in one place? I'm very interested to read them all...

[Kare]

Thank you for the great information!  I will have to read up on your copper posts!  And I will pass this info along...

 

BTW, how do wild goats get their copper?

[Deborah Niemann-Boehle]

I wouldn't take any of this into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy the doe. Everything you just said could have meant that the buck was copper deficient. ALL of those problems were rampant in our herd before we realized we had a copper deficiency problem, and it never would have been discovered if I had not finally insisted that a deceased doe have her liver checked for copper. They don't normally check livers for anything here in Illinois, so all my necropsies were coming back with parasites listed as the cause of death. Maybe other states are different. When I said I wanted that doe's liver checked, the vet said I was wasting my money, and it came back 4.8 ppm -- normal is 25 to 150 ppm, so I don't know how she survived as long as she did. Copper deficiency can also cause anemia, just like iron deficiency, so I personally think that a lot of deaths get attributed to parasites incorrectly, because anemia is the way parasites kill a goat. I had two bucks die one day, and on the initial necropsy the pathologist said that it wasn't parasites, but in the end, that's what they ruled as the cause based on anemia. I had four different vets tell me copper deficiency was impossible if I was feeding a "complete" feed and free choice minerals, but obviously they were wrong. I'll shut up now about copper because I've posted lots on here in the past on that topic. I'm not saying that this buck was definitely copper deficient, because no one will ever know at this point. But I am saying that there is a TON that we don't know about goats. Selenium deficiency causes a lot of the same problems. The cause of teat defects is widely debated, but based on my experience, as each year passes with no more teat defects here, I am seriously believing that they're related to nutritional deficiencies. One thing I have noticed is that at least in my herd, the bucks need about twice as much extra copper as the does, so I don't think that there is any single mineral mix that fits the needs of every goats.