My problem is likely not unique but is a real problem for here. When I purchased my pregnant doe in March, I also purchased her yearling daughter as the companion goat. The breeder said they were very close and daughter did not want to be away from mom at all.
Naively, I didn't think this would be a problem since they would be together all the time and thought it was a normal bond. However, I was, as I indicated, naive. Summer (yearling doe) does not want Mom out of her sight at all, even for a few minutes. I've kept them together except for birthing when I removed Summer from the stall but she was right there where she could see everything.
I took Mom (Capri) into the main yard (south side of the building) one day with baby following. I left Summer in the stall. Their stall is in a corner of my covered/enclosed patio which has a separate door to their outside area on the north side of the building. Summer went crazy, literally, she managed to get out of the stall, climbed up over the freezer and many things stored on tables, shelves, behind it, and forced herself through the folding doors which cover that side of the patio to keep the rain/wind out. This was no small feat for her to have managed to get out there, my cat cannot even manage it getting in/out except through the door.
That could have been a fluke event and happened two or three weeks ago. However, today, I had Capri (Mom) in my front yard (on a leash), clearly in view of both daughters, about 40 feet away. I took her out there to eat the lilac shoots before I trimmed them since she likes them so well. Suddenly, Summer was there! She had been standing on the electrical spool next to the fence which separated the two areas. Apparently, she somehow managed to get her front legs over the rail and "climbed up" the fence. Understand, this is a 6-foot chain link fence; fortunately it has wooden slats in it or she could have gotten a foot caught in it and possibly broken a leg (it is a 1940s fence and has the larger openings in the links).
I live in town and cannot risk any of them getting out. Before I even considered getting goats, I realized that I would have to take extra care at the gates to ensure the openings (especially on the RV gate) would not allow them to get through. However with all the fences being 5-6 feet high from the inside (and on concrete stem walls), it seemed that Nigerian Dwarf goats could easily be kept inside with no worry.
There is no such problem with Capri (Mom), only with Summer who has to see her mother at all times. The day I took Capri and baby to the vet, I shut Summer inside the stall. Because she last saw Mom go out that door which she could not get out through, she was still there when we returned. Now I know if I had not taken that extra precaution, she may have been God-only-knows-where when we returned.
This seems like an unduly close attachment to Mom when even when Mom is visible, she goes beserk (the only word for it really considering the effort she had to go through to get over that fence!). In an email, her previous owner said she nursed until she was nine months old. Is it possible that this is an issue for her to have this extremely strong desire to be constantly with her mother? Somehow I need to find a way to reduce this dependency or I will have to re-home her which I do not want to do, but I cannot risk her teaching new baby these things.
It is not practical for me to cover their area with cattle panels or chain link nor do I want to. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do so that this behavior is corrected? I know that goats bond closely with other goats, but this seems more than what would be normal. Often, Capri will rush out of the stall when I go to feed them like she wants to get away from her/them, but comes back in. I find that she is spending most of her time outside away from Summer though in sight of Summer. It's like Capri is annoyed with her constantly being there. Capri has no problem being away from Summer which, of course, is not the case with baby who she wants to have visible and close all the time at this point.
It is not my wish to re-home Summer as this would very likely be extremely traumatic for her. I am open to all suggestions. If she manages to get over the fence again without the help of the spool, she will have to go elsewhere. It has only been recently goats have been allowed in town and if one is out wandering around, there might be a change in policy which I would not want to be responsible for. I want to keep all three of my does (and want others to be able to have goats as well) so I am all ears.
Glenna
Replies
Nearly two weeks later and I have very good news. Through an unbiased mind and a lot of observing in different situations (and a lot of extra attention to big sister), it turns out the "problem" was not the problem I thought it was. I spoke with a friend about this when I went out to their greenhouse. He pointed something out to me that I had not even considered; after baby was, born big sister chose another herd mom, me. I was a bit skeptical for a few minutes; he explained it all. They had raised goats with their daughters very much into 4H and observed many interactions where the "mom" changed when new babies were born.
Being aware of different possibilities was most revealing. I truly appreciate all the input here. Most of all, I am so glad that there will no need to re-home big sister. I'm giving her more mental challenges, trying to have at least one new thing every day or so and making certain to give her extra attention. Mom and baby don't seem to mind big sister getting the extra attention so that works well too. After I finish getting my garden in (and fenced from 4-legged buddies), I'll also get serious about teaching tricks to Summer - I am very sure she will easily learn anything the is remotely fun for her.
Knowing each of you, being very biased, will disagree, I say that I have the three best little girls in the world. <g>
I'm so glad you clarified your earlier posts. I was really confused by some of your comments as no one had suggested that you keep a goat in a crate in any situation other than an emergency or that you separate her for the sake of separating her. Anyway, I don't know why the seller told you that she wouldn't separate the mom and daughter, but I think that is the first time I've ever heard of doing that with a yearling doe. I keep four or five doelings every year, and most of them will be sold after their first freshening, and it has never even crossed my mind that they were too attached to their dam to be sold. That's a really odd idea. If the mom and daughter were something like 9 and 10 years old, then maybe I wouldn't want them separated because they're old and have been together forever. Nothing you described about the goat's behavior sounds unusual and certainly not insurmountable. You could have two unrelated goats reacting just as strongly if you separated them. Once you understand normal goat psychology, you can work with them.
Forgot to mention - the grain to which I referred is not actually grain but specially formulated goat feed for does both milking and non-milking. Mom gets about a quart a day and Summer gets about half that, this is in addition to alfalfa pellets to supplement their grass hay. Though they don't eat very much of the pellets, it helps me be secure they are getting enough food as it seems they don't eat that much hay but waste more than they eat. They are probably getting far more into their tummies than I realize since I try to keep fresh leafs for them all the time.
Actually, my original post said, " Somehow I need to find a way to reduce this dependency ..." I can find ways to contain her but it is the behavior I want to correct. Apparently, that did not come across in my posts with my almost paranoid awareness that my goats are "testing" the new ordinance and I really, really want everything to go well. For families in town to be able to have their own milk goats is a good thing. My first concern was Summer nursing so long may have caused the dependency and maybe not correctable which, apparently, is not normally the case.
I must admit that I react strongly when any suggestion to crate or tether comes up as I have very deep beliefs about this. This may have originated in an acquaintance from my early adulthood confining her children to their room complete with high chairs and potty chairs. More recently, it has been heavily influenced by someone I know keeping their dog, a working breed, in a crate far too many hours; it's bad enough it isn't allowed outside but to be crated is cruel in my mind.
Since Summer went over the fence two days ago, I have been giving this a lot of thought. Unfortunately, my thoughts on why this has happened may have been a preconceived idea planted by the breeder who told me she was very dependent on her mother and did not want to be separated which is why she would only sell mom with her daughter. The day I took mom and new baby to the yard without her simply reinforced that, perhaps very wrongly. I am very optimistic the suggestion that I make it a point to give her much attention is very likely the key. We are going to be having far more dry days than wet coming up (west of the Cascades in the Pacific Northwest is infamous for rainy/misty weather) so we will have plenty of opportunity for lots of one-to-one time. She is a very smart young lady; I have no doubts she can learn a variety of tricks and quite possibly be redirected. She needs more things to do to keep her mind busy so I will be working to provide that for her which will also benefit mom and little sister. I would like to have her reach the point that she can visit nursing homes and/or classrooms.
Giving this so much thought this past couple of days to this reminds me that she is always the first one to call to me when I go out which would not be consistent with ultra-dependency for mom but perhaps more "what are we going to do now?" I attributed it to the treats they often get but it may be far more.
For walks, I'll just need to figure out some sort of harness to put on mom for baby's leash (and make it a short leash) since I have only two arms and three goats. <g> Once they are well trained to walk within a couple of feet of me, it won't be an issue but we are still in the learning phase which makes it desirable to have one at a time. I'll just need to re-think this and keep the one-at-a-time walks to within the yard to avoid any possible repeat of Saturday. The upcoming nicer weather will be a huge help to all of this.
That fence she went over? When I have the other side of that fenced, they will have a "ramp" over it for both climbing and something different to do. Cleated 2x12 lumber covered with asphalt shingles will be a good means for that - a friend told me she had made a walkway of shingle-covered 2x12 for her goats which they used a lot and helped keep hooves worn down so their feet needed less trimming since they weren't always walking on soft ground. If it helps, great, and if not, they won't slip on it when it is wet on the remote chance they are outside when it is wet. I was going to remove the dividing fence but this will give them a plaything; with a flat space at the top (fenced on the sides so they don't fall off), they can play "king of the mountain." Their shelter on that side will also be something to climb on - my granddaughters and I are going to make them a small a-frame.
Again, I appreciate all of the suggestions and comments. It has definitely helped me to look at this with a fresh perspective and, hopefully, more creativity.
Now, to try to get that piece of fence installed and the ramp built - they will have fun with that, no doubt. With planting the garden and getting ready to roof the house, it will be longer than is ideal so I need to think of some alternatives to keep them busy in the meantime.
I wasn't saying that you WERE separating for no reason... Deb mentioned that she wasn't sure (and I wasn't either) why you wanted to separate. I would never tell someone to kennel a goat for hours on end. You said in our original post that you didn't know how you could contain her when you needed to separate. I agreed with Margarete that a kennel helps when you don't have the option to build a better less escape easy pen for those times you DO need to separate. I would only suggest you use a kennel during those short moments that you were taking one goat away from the other and needed to be sure that no one got loose. Your original Q was asking ideas for how to better contain your goat, so that's what I was answering to. I just assumed that if it came down to the safety of your goat (as it sounded in your question) that you needed some stead fast answers, and not trouble shots at what might help. One thing to consider is grain is not a good option for pacification if your yearling isn't milking. She will become overweight quickly if you come to depend on it to make her happy. Obviously, it's up to you to decide what you will do in the end. From your last reply, it sounds like you already had a good idea of what you wanted to do... and now you've made up your mind. You're taking a lot of good things into account, and that's the best way to make a good decision for your circumstance, because even the best advice needs to be applied and taken with individual circumstances in mind.
I appreciate the comments, Rachel. There is reason to separate them if I am going to do any training; this isn't just to separate them for no reason. This young lady does not want to be away from mom even when it's only a few feet and she can see her.
Milking should not be an issue since they are close to each other even with a gate between them with both of them eating their grain. We had a practice session tonight and all went well, grain does wonders.<g>
While the kennel seems a good idea to some (I presume you are talking about a crate), I have a problem even with dogs being put in crates. I know many dogs spend their entire day (or night) in a crate, but that seems very cruel to me in spite of what the trainers tell me. An escape-proof stall with plenty of room to move around will have to be the way to go for me if it's something along those lines. I don't even like confining them to take them to the vet.
The suggestion of giving her a lot of one-on-one time is one that I think will work for us. If she has at least a full hour devoted to her throughout each day for just scratching, talking, walking, that is likely the best route to take. Having her bond a more with me makes sense to reduce dependency on mom until she can have her own baby. We spent some real quality time together this evening; in fact, she seemed to prefer being with me when I was done cleaning out the bedding; she totally ignored mom and baby. Her behavior tonight causes me to wonder if it was mom she was getting to or some jealousy because it was mom and me when I usually take both of them out together. I'm going to have to re-think this and be more observant as to which it is, wanting to be with mom or not wanting to be left out. The first incident it was both mom and baby with me but Saturday, it was only mom with her and baby together in the pen (she wasn't alone and does seem to be bonded with baby).
I really need to figure this out because she will go elsewhere to be bred and I certainly don't want her traumatized by that separation even for that brief time even though it will likely be at her previous home. Her bonding more with me should help then as well.
My thoughts may seem a bit unconventional but some people thought my child-rearing was as well yet I raised three fine sons, all good citizens and strong contributors to our community. There has to be a solution here - there always is, just need to find it. The time late this afternoon, only 15 minutes, that she and I were in the main yard with neither mom nor sister who were both completely out of sight, she was just fine and in no hurry to get back, even when mom called. She seemed content with just the chickens, her and me out in the chicken yard to get blackberry vines so this is puzzling if it is separation anxiety. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it might be jealously or feeling left out - if that is what it is, I can fix it by making sure she has lots of attention not only from me but from my granddaughters as well. Maybe we have all been favoring new mother without fully realizing it, certainly something to explore. As we all know, these are very smart critters and can certainly sense feelings in others just as dogs can. Since I am the human, I need to make myself more aware of the details as well as the overall picture, not always easy but necessary to have three happy goats and a happy owner.
They are getting ever more popular with the neighbors. Of course baby is a huge hit. People are changing their walking patterns to check on the goats. :-)
I truly appreciate all of the input from our members, especially since sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees - I absolutely love this group!
I personally, am in agreement with Deb that there's really no reason to be separating them "just" to separate them... and I agree with the plan to buy a dog kennel. This is a really helpful tool to contain a goat when needed. Also, when you are milking, you could tether Summer (since you are right there and can supervise. These little ladies are herd animals. It's natural for them to want very VERY much not to be alone. Unnecessary separation just causes unnecessary stress, IMO.
Thank you for the responses. It is good to hear it likely has nothing to do with the nursing so long and may be a personality thing. They came from a herd of more than a dozen adult does which lends itself to personality rather than neediness from a few pen mates.
I'm not sure the spool was a launch pad as it was right against the fence other than allowing her to stand on her back legs and getting her feet hooked over it but I did not see how she did it which would have been very helpful. It didn't occur to me that it could happen given the fence is so much higher than the spool (it's a small spool, not one of the huge ones).
I am going to follow the suggestion that I take her away from mom. When I did this a few times, she was so distressed it was just easier to let it go since there was no valid reason to separate them. The night baby was born, she wanted to be right there but did follow me out when I put the chickens to bed for the night but it was for only a few minutes and she high-tailed it back as soon as I turned around to go back. It was with great caution I let her back in with mom and baby after five hours and slept in the living room where I had the t.v. monitor on with the camera (video and audio); doubt if I really slept much between 3:00 and 6:00 however.
It is my sincere hope that taking her away from mom will work and will make it a point to do it every day at least for a few minutes. I have the milk stanchion built now so they will be separated for milking but only by the short fence still inside. Initially, I wanted her by herself to start training her to leash and also some tricks but all she could think about was getting back to mom. Perhaps if baby follows her, that will decrease though it seemed not to matter when she went over the fence. Wish me luck with this. She is a wonderful doe and will have great kids herself. She is also a good match for her half-sister if I want to train them to cart as a team. Of course, they cannot carry much in a cart, maybe my youngest granddaughter but it would still be fun.
Again, thank you. Also, I am still open to suggestions. I'll check back in after a couple of weeks of trying.
Glenna
(Summer was born January 2011, 14 months before her half-sister this March.)
It doesn't sound all that unusual to me, and once she has her own baby, she will not be so attached to her mom. Almost all of my does nurse until they're 8-9 months old, so that really doesn't play a role. It's just the individual goat's personality. We had one doe that we moved across the creek when we decided we wanted to start milking her mom twice a day, and that doe went through a hot wire, across the creek, through another hot wire to get back to her mom. My daughters changed the words to the song "Ain't no river wide enough" to "Ain't no fence hot enough, ain't no creek wide enough to keep me from getting to you ma!" Once that doe had her own kids, she then focused all of her attention on them. I've also had goats that exhibit this type of behavior if you just move them to a new pasture, which can be frustrating in a pasture rotation situation. And if these are your only two goats (other than the babies) then I'm not at all surprised that she freaks out when the other one is gone. They're herd animals. This is exactly why I always tell people they need at least two. If someone had only Summer, she'd be escaping all the time, looking for a caprine friend and getting into all sorts of trouble.
I'm not clear on whether you are purposely trying to separate them for some reason, but other than taking one to the vet, there is no reason to not have them together all the time. Capri will let her daughter know in no uncertain terms that she is no longer the baby. I've seen yearlings try to nurse after being separated for mom to give birth again, and we've never had a doe that would allow a yearling to do that. (Someone on this group did mention a doe allowing that, but that is really unusual.)
And I'm sure the spool was what allowed her to jump that fence. You can't have anything near a fence that could act as a launching pad for jumpers.
You are actually in a much better situation with this doe than if she had been a bottle baby that saw you as mom and was constantly getting out of the fence to come to you. This is one reason I love dam raised kids -- they stay with the herd.
I am so sorry you are having this problem. I can't help but feel this is preventing your full enjoyment of your little herd right now. How commendable of you to be concerned about the effects on your laws etc. in the midst of such turmoil. And it does sound like turmoil. I have had some houdinis before. But not goats so far. But I would suggest a couple of things that could help. I would absolutely get a large plastic dog traveling crate for confining when necessary. Like for that vet visit where Summer stays home etc. For her safety as well as your home and community. And as far as reconditioning goes. Well you mentioned taking Capri away from Summer, but I am wondering what happens when you try to take Summer away from Capri. It could help to spend more time taking her away from mom for special attention. Perhaps helping her break the bond by way of bonding a little more with you. I know if I were Capri, I would want Summer to have her own baby to occupy her, in hopes that she would leave me alone! I am also curious about how old Summer is NOW. And how long you have had them. I hope someone on here can give you some good advice. Best to you!