Surrey is alive and hopefully will survive this. The reason she labored all night and day after she delivered the twins is because she had another one in there. The doeling was way back and her head was turned to the back. Other people kept telling me she was just trying to expel the afterbirth but it didn't seem right since she was obviously laboring. I miraculously found a vet who came out and he discovered the baby still in there (this is 18 hours after the first ones were born). After much difficulty he got her out (stillborn). Surrey screamed in pain and I thought I would faint. He gave her antibiotics, pain killers, and a electrolyte drench. She seems to be feeling much better but so far will not let the little bucklings nurse. I will keep trying. I know she's been through hell but I hope she'll come around for her babies. Btw, the first 2 were big (3.6 and 3.8 lbs) and the one who was still in there was just as BIG. Why were the babies so big??? Did I feed her too much? I'm so sad but I'm so glad Surrey survived (fingers crossed), and hopefully it will all be all right. Prayers for Surrey and her darling bucklings please.
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I have to agree!! Knowing that you have a competent vet you can call is a HUGE blessing!! :)
For myself as far as graining goes, my plan is to monitor my doe's condition by checking the undersides of their tails, and using that as a guide to keep track of their condition. Unless they start to get bony there, I don't plan to grain any more until they have actually kidded, and need the nutrition to help support the new load in milk supply.
The breeder I got her from sent me an email that she has had large kids before. Good to know as I will do that too... not feed her grain at all when she is bred again. Especially since she tends to have triplets (this was her third set). Thanks for sharing your story, Rachel. I feel a little better about it. And thank GOD I found someone who can come out and help in emergencies who knows what he's doing!
SO sorry to hear about your loss, and your doe's struggle! It's AWESOME that you seem to have found a vet that might actually know what he's doing when it comes to goats!!
I have a doe that had VERY large kids (4+ lbs each at birth) and I only gave her grains the last two weeks of her pregnancy. This last time she as pregnant, I didn't feed her ANY grain until she delivered, and she STILL had kids (triplets this last time) that were over the 3 lb mark. So I feel like she might be pre disposed to have large kids. I will NEVER grain her during pregnancy again. I have decided that the hay I have access to is good, quality hay, and it seems that my does do not need grain before they kid. I had that doe, and a first freshener deliver without grains in the last stages of pregnancy this year, and all of their kids were very healthy, and decent sized. You might consider that your doe may also be pre disposed to large kids, and if the hay your goats get is good, you might not need to give grain.
They are nursing normally now and spunky! I'm so happy. Thank you all for your support!
They are very beautiful. I'm glad things are progressing positively. Sorry she lost the doeling, she seems like a very tough doe. It's wonderful that she's still taking care of her other two babies, what a great momma.
What beautiful babies! And what a tough mama! You've got one special doe there! Glad to hear the babies are peeing and pooping a lot. Sounds like things will settle down now! :)
Thank you Deborah for taking the time to respond. I'm very relieved to hear that they normally only nurse for short periods frequently as I just found one nursing for about 20 seconds and then again a little bit later. They are peeing and pooping (especially pooping!) like crazy. The one I thought might not be nursing just now had a big glob of yellow (smells like milk) poop hanging off his butt! Must be nursing when I don't see. They really don't like the bottle and I'm hoping they are doing fine. If one of them starts the little squeeking noises, Surrey gets right up and sort of licks and nudges them over to her teats. She's such a good mother and one amazingly tough doe!
The little doeling certainly only died shortly before we got her out because she was so fresh looking, the vet checked her vitals to see if she was alive :( She looked big and healthy and strong. The way she was in there was facing forward with her head turned back toward the rear, which I understand is a very difficult delivery position unless someone goes in to straighten her out, and since we didn't know she was in there, that didn't happen <so sorry>
Here's a picture of Surrey with her blue-eyed bucklings:
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There are a few things you can check on to be sure the kids are getting enough milk. If you see them peeing, that's a good start. You don't normally see baby goats poop much the first couple of weeks, so don't worry if you don't see that. When they do poop, it will look like yellow scrambled eggs. Their tummies are right at the end of their ribs, so it should feel like a little golf ball in their bellies. If they latch on an only nurse for 15-30 seconds, that's normal at this point. The first day or two, they might nurse for a few minutes at a time, but you don't normally see that after the first couple days. They do, however, nurse really frequently, which you won't see unless you're spending a lot of time with them. If you give them a bottle, an ounce or two is good at this age for their size. If you have seen them nurse, they should start nursing more often as Surrey feels better and spends more time on her feet.
Feeding does during pregnancy can be quite the balancing act. From what I've heard, boer goat breeders will feed a doe more if they know she is carrying triplets or quads. I've heard some even do ultrasounds to find out who is carrying multiples. However, it also sounds like boers have more problems with pregnancy toxemia than NDs. I don't normally feed any grain until the last two weeks of pregnancy if I think a doe is carrying multiples, and I may wait until a few days before her due date to start feeding grain if I have any concerns about big kids, especially if we're feeding 100% alfalfa, which is richer and higher in protein than most grass hays. Your kids weren't really "too big," although they're bigger than average. My personal favorite is about 3 pounds, but we can't always get what we want. :) I used to think that when a doe had multiples, there was no such thing as kids that were too big, but I've changed my mind on that a little as I've discovered that when there are a lot of kids in there, and they're big, it is harder for them to get into an ideal position for birth because they don't have room for moving around or maneuvering.
I'm curious if the vet said anything about how long the doeling had been dead. My guess is that she was probably dead before the boys were even born, simply because dead kids usually have trouble being born. You can tell that she has been dead for awhile if you can rub her hair off with your finger or if her skin is fragile enough to easily tear. And of course, if she's already decomposing, that's a big clue.
Good luck with Surrey and boys! Post pictures when you get a chance!
Deborah, first yes, the bucklings got her colostrum the night they were born and the next morning. Then she continued to labor all day and they had almost nothing-- couldn't get them to nurse and Surrey was in big-time distress. I gave them some bottle (goats milk) yesterday afternoon and last night but they didn't take much and fought it hard. I've been terribly concerned. It looked like they nursed a little last night before I left the barn so I thought all is well. This morning Surrey is up and around and i couldn't get them to latch on to nurse. They are not terribly weak and walk around and they will bump her but not suck for more than a few seconds. She seems to want them to nurse as well. I milked about a cup out a little while ago and will try again with the bottle but it's very hard to get them to take it. I know they need it badly and I'll keep trying... and trying to get them to nurse her. Their little tummies definitely seem like they are not getting enough.
On the subject of how much food... I got Surrey when she was 3 months pregnant. I read on here and everywhere I could find and it seemed ok to give her grain since she would likely have triplets (she'd had triplets the last 2 times). I gave her about 1/2 cup twice a day and some alfalfa pellets too (a handful), plus she had hay and free foraging here -- and minerals and baking soda free-choice. I feel so awful that I may have caused her to have big babies. The last baby the vet said she would not have been able to push her out because of the way she was positioned though. Also, she was way up in there which is why the other afterbirths were coming out and also why I couldn't feel the baby. He was in up to his elbows to get her out.
Any advice on getting enough in these little boys would be greatly appreciated!
I know this is kind of late, but hopefully the bucklings nursed at least a little within the first few hours after birth (before the third kid was born) because they really need colostrum ASAP. The textbooks say that if they don't get it within the first six hours of birth, it doesn't get absorbed by the gut as well as within those first few hours after birth. This post sounded more like the kids just hadn't been nursing lately due to Surrey's condition.
Those are extremely big babies for triplets, which can be caused by a diet that is too rich. Were you feeding grain for her entire pregnancy? If so, what type? Alfalfa? Pasture?
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