Pecial's Necropsy results

See Blog RIP Care-A-Lot's 'Pecial for background

I hate seeing a goat laying on the ground and I have really begun to dread going out to do morning chores because...Today I lost the other buck that came with Pecial. He was much younger. I decided not to have him tested because:

1. The tests and disposal fees together are very expensive here $329 total only $54 of which was for the disposal.

a. I just got laid off

b. David nearly pooped a brick when I told him how much it was

2. He came from the same farm as Pecial

I don't have the full report yet, but here is basically what the vet told me over the phone. The reason I am posting this is, that something here may help someone else save their goats.

STILL don't have the results of the copper test, but they did indicate that it could be a concern. There was a whole ton of stuff on this report

(unconfirmed) diet change could have caused reticulitis ...(thing is I don't think it changed much except for the dairy pellets to goat chow...grass and hay would not make that much difference so quickly. Otherwise we have the same feed)
haemomchus... Barber pole worms?
stress levels ( from moving?) caused spike in population?
Nicrosis in liver paddock lobuals brown pigments hemosideran Lobular atrophy defuse moderate to severe
coccidosis? caused
overgrowth of protazoa
body condition score low

need 100 gram protine daily and 40ppm copper in liver @ any one time.

advised reevaluation of nutrition program and alternating wormers aprox every 3 months. (because of high temps and humidity much of the year) (Valbazin, Cidectin and add levamisole to the rotation if needed) and doing fecals regularly, (Implied every 6 months) to ensure the program is effective and making changes as needed based on results.

Because these are one of the worst kinds of worms and they are really bad here in the south. Best to send to diagnostic lab: for this species of worm 1000 eggs per gram is good above 1000 is too much. Best is around 200-300. Also highly advised rotational grazing, and copper bolus every 6 months.

Recommended Langston University Oklahoma extension department has on the website a nutritional guide, calculator and other helpful info. "cutting edge research."

Now basically what this boils down to is worms. I had just wormed Pecial a few days before he died. But it must not have been effective. Boudreaux was due to be wormed on the 24th I believe even the problems the doctor associated with diet may have still been caused by the worms after reading a bit more on them. Also there is a theory circulating it seems, that these worms could contribute to Reticulitis, which would make more sense in this case than a change in feed. IMHO. Apparently they reduce the effectiveness of the feed, not allowing it to be absorbed properly, and can cause Diarrhea weight loss and in does a sudden loss of milk production. Which would explain his low body condition score. They also male it so that other worms could thrive, and the wormers available are not as affective on these...This is an interesting story my mentor found http://www.blessedgreenpastures.com/chocolate.html

I am going to do blood draws for their tests as soon as I get another job, and I will go ahead and overnight fecal samples for each goat at that time to have their counts done. Right now Dream Catcher is alone, but I moved him up front into the little boy pen. It is about 100 feet from the does so he can see and hear them. The little boys spend most of their time hanging out near the mamas because they are small enough to get out. At the moment they are more scared of Catcher, than they are of the dogs, and Catcher doesn't seem care about them in or out of the pen. I put a water bucket and a hay feeder up on the porch for the little boys in case they need it and are too scared to go into their pen. I also have the dog crate set up near the mama pen. I lock them in there with food at milking time so they don't try to nurse Isabel while I am trying to get her to the milk stand.

I know I need another goat but my hands are tied at the moment, so this will have to do until the Lord lets the sun out again on my life. Originally I was more than happy with 4 goats 2 and 2 but this is twice now I have had lonely goats and I don't ever want to do it again. so I think for me my best herd size would be 6-8 goats including one wether and 1-2 bucks, having 2-3 does in milk. In order to maintain that herd size I am currently thinking it would be best to wether any bucklings who don't sell by 12 weeks. Wethers sell like hot cakes around here I have noticed.

This fall I plan for my two does to kid again (then yearly thereafter) and I will keep doelings for at least a year. I need to pick one to replace Indiana in the next 3 years, so that I will have a replacement by the time she is ready to retire. At each kidding I will cull out the previous years doelings that are not my absolute favorites. Catcher has the width I need to improve Isabel and the udders in his background needed to improve Indiana. So as long as I can keep him alive I should be good with just him as a buck until I am ready to breed his daughters.

I keep wondering if I should dry lot them considering the severity of these little ___! I think I would much rather risk more treatable conditions common on dry lots than these super worms. However I am not sure how I would keep their pens clean if I did that. Does anyone here have experience with dry lots?

Any advise on dietary changes?

I think most farms try to test yearly, especially for showing, but sometimes one might skip a year or two...from what I have seen.

Kimberly Martin said:

Yes, the rotational wormer with horses has really been drilled the past few years, and is still changing. I need to learn so much about goat care, that I take almost everything "under advisement". I research more with conflicting information. My local sources have been a pet/meat goat owner who runs a feed store, a ND breeder who loves her goats but loses some, a vet who breeds NDs but has a "bad" reputation (although I've not had any issue with him- he undercuts the "other" dog/cat vet's prices with his clinic-probably the real issue), and another feed store owner who developed some very nice show goat feed.

I intend to let the goats browse a 6 acre area that hasn't been sprayed since '83 (or earlier) soon. Right now, I'm watching closely to see if they know the difference between poisonous or not, because they'd been raised on dry lot. So, that will be a gradual change. I also need to wait until the kids are big enough. Our area supposedly is fine for copper, but I'm wondering that since I'm having soil samples done anyway if that can be determined for this particular farm. Might not be a bad idea?

Also, how often should the herd be tested for CAE, Johnne's, CL, etc? I may show ours, if that makes a difference.

Replies

Deborah Niemann-Boehle April 9, 2011 at 9:05pm

CAE is transmitted through blood and milk; Johnes is transmitted fecal-oral, so odds of transmitting one of those through breeding are not terribly high. I'm more concerned that there might be a sexually transmitted disease that we just don't know about. I also have cattle, and they just discovered a sexually transmitted disease in the last couple years, so it was very important to me to buy a virgin bull. The diseases causes spontaneous abortions, so it's not something you want.

Melissa Johnson said:

do people still test if they have a closed herd? just curious. I have heard that's why many folks dont offer buck service.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle April 9, 2011 at 9:03pm

Rotational grazing works better than mob grazing for parasite control. Put cattle on the pasture after the goats leave. Apparently cattle and horses have different parasites than goats and sheep, so if a cow or horse eats the larvae, the worms just die in them, rather than reproducing. Essentially the cattle and horses act as a sanitizer for the pasture. If you can't rotate a non-host through a pasture, another option is to take a cutting of hay from the field, because the larvae will die as the hay dries.

Kimberly Martin said:

Thank you Adrienne!

I found it interesting that grazing with horses or cattle helped the worm population, that's a bit misleading I think. It's probably because they would eat the grass and leave the taller things for the goats? There is just so much to try to figure out! Since the worms can exist under the soil, it's a wonder this isn't a bad problem almost everywhere!

Again, I'm SO sorry for your losses, and discussing these issues helps concentrate efforts in finding solutions that might otherwise not be available locally. I'm sure most of my goat people wouldn't know about this at all! So, thank you for sharing. I hope you have no further sadness!
Adrienne April 9, 2011 at 12:24pm

I think that is a great idea, but it would probably dry out pretty quickly if I left it just outside the front gate. These sanitizing mat things are designed to be left out it looks like. http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/details/Disinfection-Mat/36-350.html

Kimberly Martin said:

Adrienne: A sanitizing mat? Where have you seen those? I've been wearing my old white tennis shoes and keeping a short tray of bleach water by the back door to put them in after going to the chicken pen, etc. (Not into the house at all!)
Kimberly Martin April 9, 2011 at 11:32am

Adrienne: A sanitizing mat? Where have you seen those? I've been wearing my old white tennis shoes and keeping a short tray of bleach water by the back door to put them in after going to the chicken pen, etc. (Not into the house at all!)
Ruth Goode April 9, 2011 at 9:45am

Adrienne said:
Yes. They should still test. The way it was explained to me is: Even if you have a closed herd, you still have to go to the feed store and you still go to other places around town, and there is always a danger of picking up some unwanted thing on your shoes or tiers, or even of visitors bringing things in. Now I don't know how founded this is but I bought my goats from tested herds, and I intend to test every 1-2 years. I'd really like to get one of those sanitizing mat things for just outside the gate so we, and visitors can sanitize shoes coming and going. They are a tad on the expensive side to me and I have not heard anything about them so I have yet to make the investment.

Melissa Johnson said:
do people still test if they have a closed herd? just curious. I have heard that's why many folks dont offer buck service.
Adrienne April 9, 2011 at 9:31am

Yes. They should still test. The way it was explained to me is: Even if you have a closed herd, you still have to go to the feed store and you still go to other places around town, and there is always a danger of picking up some unwanted thing on your shoes or tiers, or even of visitors bringing things in. Now I don't know how founded this is but I bought my goats from tested herds, and I intend to test every 1-2 years. I'd really like to get one of those sanitizing mat things for just outside the gate so we, and visitors can sanitize shoes coming and going. They are a tad on the expensive side to me and I have not heard anything about them so I have yet to make the investment.

Melissa Johnson said:

do people still test if they have a closed herd? just curious. I have heard that's why many folks dont offer buck service.
Melissa Johnson April 9, 2011 at 12:22am

do people still test if they have a closed herd? just curious. I have heard that's why many folks dont offer buck service.
Melissa Johnson April 9, 2011 at 12:14am

no other sadness - agreed.

Kimberly Martin said:
Thank you Adrienne!

I found it interesting that grazing with horses or cattle helped the worm population, that's a bit misleading I think. It's probably because they would eat the grass and leave the taller things for the goats? There is just so much to try to figure out! Since the worms can exist under the soil, it's a wonder this isn't a bad problem almost everywhere!

Again, I'm SO sorry for your losses, and discussing these issues helps concentrate efforts in finding solutions that might otherwise not be available locally. I'm sure most of my goat people wouldn't know about this at all! So, thank you for sharing. I hope you have no further sadness!
Kimberly Martin April 8, 2011 at 6:06pm

Thank you Adrienne!

I found it interesting that grazing with horses or cattle helped the worm population, that's a bit misleading I think. It's probably because they would eat the grass and leave the taller things for the goats? There is just so much to try to figure out! Since the worms can exist under the soil, it's a wonder this isn't a bad problem almost everywhere!

Again, I'm SO sorry for your losses, and discussing these issues helps concentrate efforts in finding solutions that might otherwise not be available locally. I'm sure most of my goat people wouldn't know about this at all! So, thank you for sharing. I hope you have no further sadness!
Adrienne April 8, 2011 at 4:49pm

I think most farms try to test yearly, especially for showing, but sometimes one might skip a year or two...from what I have seen.

Kimberly Martin said:

Yes, the rotational wormer with horses has really been drilled the past few years, and is still changing. I need to learn so much about goat care, that I take almost everything "under advisement". I research more with conflicting information. My local sources have been a pet/meat goat owner who runs a feed store, a ND breeder who loves her goats but loses some, a vet who breeds NDs but has a "bad" reputation (although I've not had any issue with him- he undercuts the "other" dog/cat vet's prices with his clinic-probably the real issue), and another feed store owner who developed some very nice show goat feed.

I intend to let the goats browse a 6 acre area that hasn't been sprayed since '83 (or earlier) soon. Right now, I'm watching closely to see if they know the difference between poisonous or not, because they'd been raised on dry lot. So, that will be a gradual change. I also need to wait until the kids are big enough. Our area supposedly is fine for copper, but I'm wondering that since I'm having soil samples done anyway if that can be determined for this particular farm. Might not be a bad idea?

Also, how often should the herd be tested for CAE, Johnne's, CL, etc? I may show ours, if that makes a difference.

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