Posted by Adrienne on February 22, 2011 at 9:54am in Health
The kids are 3 weeks old today, and I know I should start giving them the stuff to prevent coccidosis (sp?). My mentor told me the doses, but I cant find where I wrote it down...I know she is in the barn with all her does kidding. Might anyone else know the dosage?
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A month is usually the amount of time recommended for isolating new animals from the rest of your herd, because most things will become apparent within that time. With coccidia, "they" say that all goats have some level in their system, and it's only when it gets out of control that it's a problem. It usually gets out of control when the environment keeps reintroducing the coccidia to the animal. Paul Dettloff, DVM, in "Alternative Treatments for Ruminant Animals" says that kids less than 21 days old won't show signs of coccidiosis because it hasn't had time to go through its lifecycle. After that, however, the question is just "when" it gets overgrown in their system.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
The milk came from a herd that is CAE free, so that is not a worry. I really don't know the transporter, she was suggested to me by the breeder since she was already coming pretty close. Not a professional, just someone else from my state picking up goats in the same area. It could be that she didn't feed them at all? I'm more concerned if they shared the bottle with a sick goat. Maybe she fed mine first? I'm not sure and don't know if I want to ask her and open up a can of worms. I think I will treat them as if they have been exposed. How long after exposure can they come down with it? I am giving them yogurt, power punch and immune booster...
That's a good idea about the puppy play pen. I will look into it. For today it's quite a bit colder here than where they came from, so I don't want them outside just yet for very long. The other kidding pen has a doe and her two kids and they can go in and out. The weather is snowy and cold, so the doe and kids are staying in a lot, which is probably helping, since then the boys can see them. For now, if one of them develops cocci, it's just the two of them in a pen.
It's fecal-oral transmission, but if one of the other kids was mouthing at something contaminated, then sucked on the bottle, it seems possible. I can still tell you about my first cocci case nine years ago. I bought a buck who was supposed to come with a free wether companion. The wether had a poopy butt, so I wouldn't take him, but about three days later, my buck had diarrhea, then my doeling, which had already been here for a couple months. The problem with diarrhea is that you don't know it's a problem until it's a problem and everyone has danced through it with their hooves. If you have (or can get) one of those puppy play pens, it's big enough for two kids. They're eight, two-foot wide panels, and you can get them in almost every height imaginable from two feet to four feet. You can either make a square, or you can attach the ends to walls to make an even bigger space. I use mine several times a year. I've had it for nine years and it's still in good shape.
Something else I just thought about -- where did the milk come from that was fed to your kids, if it wasn't what the breeder had sent? Do you know it was from a CAE-free doe or had been pasteurized? Just curious if this was a professional transporter? It seems like such a simple thing to have someone else transport a goat for you, but twice I let someone else act as an intermediary between me and the goat's breeder, and both times I regretted it -- once I wound up with a dead goat from Safeguard-resistant worms that he picked up at the intermediary's farm, and the other time I got a goat with a broken leg. And these were both very nice people.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
Unfortunately I have already allowed a short supervised visit with the new kids and my herd. I am not really set up to keep them separate for a month. They are inside in a kidding pen where they can't see the other goats during the day. My buck pen has a fence which won't keep the smallest of the two kids in and it's full of snow and muddy right now. Neither of the goats I bought have diarrhea or act sick, but I will keep an eye on them. I am so thankful my kids were in a crate. Can it be spread through sharing a bottle? Or just from eating off the ground where the poop is?
Sorry I don't recognize that dosage at all, and I can't understand why anyone would add water if they only need to give a kid half a cc of something. The less you have to give them, the easier it is. The small amount of medication combined with an on-and-off schedule seems like a good recipe for creating drug resistance.
Pasty diarrhea in kids over three weeks of age is usually caused by coccidia, so I'd be concerned about your goat's traveling partners. I would definitely keep the new kids separate from your goats for at least a month.
I personally don't use any of the cocci meds as a preventative because there are only three on the market, so if you get resistance to them, you will have dead goats. There are cocci preventatives on the market that you can use if you are concerned, and they have a completely different mode of action than the meds for treating coccidia. They are in feed or minerals. I've used the medicated feed because you don't really know how much they'll eat for minerals. There is also medicated milk replacer, which you could use if you don't have enough goat milk for the babies.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
Can you tell from this information?
Here is what the breeder says about them:
Zimba gets his last dose of cocci prevention tomorrow (so it was done before I got him at 6 weeks old) and I will send along some for Ferd to have a second round. I think he is due in a week or less. For his second round, she sent a little film cannister full.
Here is what she does, according to instructions she sent along. At 3 weeks of age, .5cc diluted with 2cc of water for 5-7 days. At six weeks it is increased to .6cc and at 9 weeks to .7cc
I don't know the conditions they were in, but guessing from what I know about the breeder and the way the kids look and act, I'd say they were optimal conditions. However, they just took a 12 hour car trip with 5 kids from another farm. (plus 8 hours) My two were in a crate, the other 5 were loose. One or more of the 5 left some muddy looking poop on the cooler that was sent along for me, but I did not see any on the crate. It is not stinky, but that is what I was wondering about. I've never seen Coccidosis, so don't know if that is what it was. No incidents with my goats, so they wouldn't catch it here, just from that car ride. They also may have shared a bottle.
I think you could go with whatever option you feel best about. If they're in good shape and suddenly have diarrhea, you can treat it then. And as you said, the herbal dewormers won't hurt. If you've got it, you might as well use it. And I often forget to mention that haemonchus contortus (barberpole worm) is pretty much our only internal parasite problem here. I know it's also a problem in the southwest US but don't know about Montana, so maybe the herbal dewormer will work better on what you have. They claim it works on everything, but if they're never had a problem with barberpole, then they don't really know about that one -- just like I don't really know anything about liver flukes.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
So, with these facts in mind, the fact that they have been on and off of the cocci drugs, but are in a clean environment and came from a clean environment, do you think it would be ok if I do not give the last dose of preventative and instead give my herbal wormer and some immune booster? I know you aren't sold on the herbal wormer, but it can't hurt, can it? I think you are supposed to worm a goat the day it comes and it's been 4 days now.... but I want to be sure I won't cause the cocci that's been introduced into their system to overtake them...
Options:
1. Wait and watch and give nothing for worms or cocci unless I see a need for it
2. Finish up the cocci doses on the younger one (the other one is finished with his)
3. Don't give any more cocci and begin the herbal wormer schedule
4. Other _____
Thanks!
BTW, I have kept them separate since the day I wrote about above. They seem to be doing ok with it as long as the other goats are on the other side of the slatted wall sometimes and we are in and out to visit them. I would say judging from their appearance and behavior, they are thriving. That is my unprofessional opinion only =)
So, with these facts in mind, the fact that they have been on and off of the cocci drugs, but are in a clean environment and came from a clean environment, do you think it would be ok if I do not give the last dose of preventative and instead give my herbal wormer and some immune booster? I know you aren't sold on the herbal wormer, but it can't hurt, can it? I think you are supposed to worm a goat the day it comes and it's been 4 days now.... but I want to be sure I won't cause the cocci that's been introduced into their system to overtake them...
Options:
1. Wait and watch and give nothing for worms or cocci unless I see a need for it
2. Finish up the cocci doses on the younger one (the other one is finished with his)
3. Don't give any more cocci and begin the herbal wormer schedule
4. Other _____
Thanks!
BTW, I have kept them separate since the day I wrote about above. They seem to be doing ok with it as long as the other goats are on the other side of the slatted wall sometimes and we are in and out to visit them. I would say judging from their appearance and behavior, they are thriving. That is my unprofessional opinion only =)
It's really difficult to answer that question without knowing exactly what has been done because people do things differently. If they've been receiving a sub-therapeutic dose AND they have some cocci in their system, and you quit giving it to them, it could cause the cocci to grow, and they could be resistant to di-methox -- like antibiotics that are used sub-therapeutically or dewormers that are used often. It also depends on what conditions were like at the farm where they came from. If these are the bottle babies you mentioned in another thread, and they were only living with other babies in clean conditions, the odds that they have cocci are practically nil, because kids pick it up from adults' fecal matter.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
I have a question about DiMethox. If a kid has already been treated with it for prevention, what if they are switched over to a natural preventative in the middle of the series? It won't hurt anything, will it?
I have a question about DiMethox. If a kid has already been treated with it for prevention, what if they are switched over to a natural preventative in the middle of the series? It won't hurt anything, will it?
It seems like in the goat world, a lot of issues are muddy. That's why I try to get several takes on something because then I can do what I think is best. As a newb though, decisions can be hard.
I was looking for something else online last night, and I found something written by a goat breeder about treating coccidiosis, and she said not to even waste your money on sulmet because it was worthless. I imagine that is probably true on her farm, but like dewormers and antibiotics, it can vary from place to place. The dosages she listed really surprised me, and I read them several times. For prevention, she listed the dosage that I used for years to treat the disease, and for treatment, she had 3X the dosage I've used.
She also said Corid doesn't cause thiamine deficiency when given at the prescribed dose, but when that vet told me to use it, and I objected because of thiamine deficiency, he said, "Well, you can just treat the goat for thiamine deficiency." And I know I read in the goat catalogs that Corid caused thiamine deficiency. So, this issue is obviously getting quite muddy.
Thank you for the advice Deborah! With the new cattle panel pens I feel more confident I can keep them clean because whenever it gets messy... every other day or so I can just pick it up and move it. For now I have the two mama's and 3 babies in a 16x16. Aurora will be going to her new home soon, and in another few weeks I will have to put the little boys in their own pen until they are sold or big enough to stay with the big boys that are coming when Aurora's new mama comes to get her.
I don't give drugs to healthy animals because if you do, that drug will eventually not work when you really need it. It has happened with dewormers, and it has happened with antibiotics. Since there are only two or three drugs in existence for coccidia, it is not one that I want to play around with. In fact, I know one vet who thinks giving the sulfa drugs for cocci is a waste of time and tells everyone to use Corid, even though it can cause a thiamine deficiency in goats, so I guess resistance to di-methox and sulmet is already happening at some level or on some farms.
I never had trouble with cocci until my herd got bigger. After switching to private kidding pens and then keeping the goats in smaller groups, the incidence has gone down again, so I really think that it is possible to control it with how you house the goats. If you have enough space, and keep the bedding as clean as possible, it shouldn't become a big problem. I know it sounds crazy to talk about keeping a barn clean, but the feces is the issue. You just can't let it build up.
If you really feel a need to use some type of medication because your housing situation isn't ideal, there are medicated feeds and medicated minerals, but if you're consuming the milk from the does, you would need to make sure they don't get into it. They are a completely different class of drug than those used to treat the disease. Sorry I don't remember exactly how they work, but the mode of action is different than the ones used for treatment.
Replies
A month is usually the amount of time recommended for isolating new animals from the rest of your herd, because most things will become apparent within that time. With coccidia, "they" say that all goats have some level in their system, and it's only when it gets out of control that it's a problem. It usually gets out of control when the environment keeps reintroducing the coccidia to the animal. Paul Dettloff, DVM, in "Alternative Treatments for Ruminant Animals" says that kids less than 21 days old won't show signs of coccidiosis because it hasn't had time to go through its lifecycle. After that, however, the question is just "when" it gets overgrown in their system.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
The milk came from a herd that is CAE free, so that is not a worry. I really don't know the transporter, she was suggested to me by the breeder since she was already coming pretty close. Not a professional, just someone else from my state picking up goats in the same area. It could be that she didn't feed them at all? I'm more concerned if they shared the bottle with a sick goat. Maybe she fed mine first? I'm not sure and don't know if I want to ask her and open up a can of worms. I think I will treat them as if they have been exposed. How long after exposure can they come down with it? I am giving them yogurt, power punch and immune booster...
That's a good idea about the puppy play pen. I will look into it. For today it's quite a bit colder here than where they came from, so I don't want them outside just yet for very long. The other kidding pen has a doe and her two kids and they can go in and out. The weather is snowy and cold, so the doe and kids are staying in a lot, which is probably helping, since then the boys can see them. For now, if one of them develops cocci, it's just the two of them in a pen.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
It's fecal-oral transmission, but if one of the other kids was mouthing at something contaminated, then sucked on the bottle, it seems possible. I can still tell you about my first cocci case nine years ago. I bought a buck who was supposed to come with a free wether companion. The wether had a poopy butt, so I wouldn't take him, but about three days later, my buck had diarrhea, then my doeling, which had already been here for a couple months. The problem with diarrhea is that you don't know it's a problem until it's a problem and everyone has danced through it with their hooves. If you have (or can get) one of those puppy play pens, it's big enough for two kids. They're eight, two-foot wide panels, and you can get them in almost every height imaginable from two feet to four feet. You can either make a square, or you can attach the ends to walls to make an even bigger space. I use mine several times a year. I've had it for nine years and it's still in good shape.
Something else I just thought about -- where did the milk come from that was fed to your kids, if it wasn't what the breeder had sent? Do you know it was from a CAE-free doe or had been pasteurized? Just curious if this was a professional transporter? It seems like such a simple thing to have someone else transport a goat for you, but twice I let someone else act as an intermediary between me and the goat's breeder, and both times I regretted it -- once I wound up with a dead goat from Safeguard-resistant worms that he picked up at the intermediary's farm, and the other time I got a goat with a broken leg. And these were both very nice people.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
Unfortunately I have already allowed a short supervised visit with the new kids and my herd. I am not really set up to keep them separate for a month. They are inside in a kidding pen where they can't see the other goats during the day. My buck pen has a fence which won't keep the smallest of the two kids in and it's full of snow and muddy right now. Neither of the goats I bought have diarrhea or act sick, but I will keep an eye on them. I am so thankful my kids were in a crate. Can it be spread through sharing a bottle? Or just from eating off the ground where the poop is?
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Sorry I don't recognize that dosage at all, and I can't understand why anyone would add water if they only need to give a kid half a cc of something. The less you have to give them, the easier it is. The small amount of medication combined with an on-and-off schedule seems like a good recipe for creating drug resistance.
Pasty diarrhea in kids over three weeks of age is usually caused by coccidia, so I'd be concerned about your goat's traveling partners. I would definitely keep the new kids separate from your goats for at least a month.
I personally don't use any of the cocci meds as a preventative because there are only three on the market, so if you get resistance to them, you will have dead goats. There are cocci preventatives on the market that you can use if you are concerned, and they have a completely different mode of action than the meds for treating coccidia. They are in feed or minerals. I've used the medicated feed because you don't really know how much they'll eat for minerals. There is also medicated milk replacer, which you could use if you don't have enough goat milk for the babies.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
Can you tell from this information?
Here is what the breeder says about them:
Zimba gets his last dose of cocci prevention tomorrow (so it was done before I got him at 6 weeks old) and I will send along some for Ferd to have a second round. I think he is due in a week or less. For his second round, she sent a little film cannister full.
Here is what she does, according to instructions she sent along. At 3 weeks of age, .5cc diluted with 2cc of water for 5-7 days. At six weeks it is increased to .6cc and at 9 weeks to .7cc
I don't know the conditions they were in, but guessing from what I know about the breeder and the way the kids look and act, I'd say they were optimal conditions. However, they just took a 12 hour car trip with 5 kids from another farm. (plus 8 hours) My two were in a crate, the other 5 were loose. One or more of the 5 left some muddy looking poop on the cooler that was sent along for me, but I did not see any on the crate. It is not stinky, but that is what I was wondering about. I've never seen Coccidosis, so don't know if that is what it was. No incidents with my goats, so they wouldn't catch it here, just from that car ride. They also may have shared a bottle.
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
So, with these facts in mind, the fact that they have been on and off of the cocci drugs, but are in a clean environment and came from a clean environment, do you think it would be ok if I do not give the last dose of preventative and instead give my herbal wormer and some immune booster? I know you aren't sold on the herbal wormer, but it can't hurt, can it? I think you are supposed to worm a goat the day it comes and it's been 4 days now.... but I want to be sure I won't cause the cocci that's been introduced into their system to overtake them...
Options:
1. Wait and watch and give nothing for worms or cocci unless I see a need for it
2. Finish up the cocci doses on the younger one (the other one is finished with his)
3. Don't give any more cocci and begin the herbal wormer schedule
4. Other _____
Thanks!
BTW, I have kept them separate since the day I wrote about above. They seem to be doing ok with it as long as the other goats are on the other side of the slatted wall sometimes and we are in and out to visit them. I would say judging from their appearance and behavior, they are thriving. That is my unprofessional opinion only =)
Kare at Chaverah Farm said:
I was looking for something else online last night, and I found something written by a goat breeder about treating coccidiosis, and she said not to even waste your money on sulmet because it was worthless. I imagine that is probably true on her farm, but like dewormers and antibiotics, it can vary from place to place. The dosages she listed really surprised me, and I read them several times. For prevention, she listed the dosage that I used for years to treat the disease, and for treatment, she had 3X the dosage I've used.
She also said Corid doesn't cause thiamine deficiency when given at the prescribed dose, but when that vet told me to use it, and I objected because of thiamine deficiency, he said, "Well, you can just treat the goat for thiamine deficiency." And I know I read in the goat catalogs that Corid caused thiamine deficiency. So, this issue is obviously getting quite muddy.
I don't give drugs to healthy animals because if you do, that drug will eventually not work when you really need it. It has happened with dewormers, and it has happened with antibiotics. Since there are only two or three drugs in existence for coccidia, it is not one that I want to play around with. In fact, I know one vet who thinks giving the sulfa drugs for cocci is a waste of time and tells everyone to use Corid, even though it can cause a thiamine deficiency in goats, so I guess resistance to di-methox and sulmet is already happening at some level or on some farms.
I never had trouble with cocci until my herd got bigger. After switching to private kidding pens and then keeping the goats in smaller groups, the incidence has gone down again, so I really think that it is possible to control it with how you house the goats. If you have enough space, and keep the bedding as clean as possible, it shouldn't become a big problem. I know it sounds crazy to talk about keeping a barn clean, but the feces is the issue. You just can't let it build up.
If you really feel a need to use some type of medication because your housing situation isn't ideal, there are medicated feeds and medicated minerals, but if you're consuming the milk from the does, you would need to make sure they don't get into it. They are a completely different class of drug than those used to treat the disease. Sorry I don't remember exactly how they work, but the mode of action is different than the ones used for treatment.