Hello,
I am new here. I have a 6 week old buckling who I believe is copper deficient. He has the fishtail. Also the hair down his spine is parted (not sure if this is a symptom). The only reason I checked him is because my 4 month old pygmy doeling has more obvious signs of copper deficiency (bronzing hair, fish tail, lethargic). I read that bolous is the way to go but not to administer until 6 months. I cannot find any info on treating kids at this age. I have manna pro loose minerals free choice out for them but have never seen them touch it. They forage most of the day. My buckling still gets a bottle. I am worried about them but cannot figure out what to do. We have well water which i suspect could be a culprit so I will attempt to start giving them water out of our reverse osmosis system.
Please help! thank you!
-Kayla
Replies
Hi there Kayla.
my goats are not really eating coastal right now either because they are enjoying pasture and browse. That is pretty typical for this time of year here at my place. I have alfalfa hay available at night in the kid stalls and they typically eat it all up by morning.
What grain are you feeding and how much? I’m sorry if already asked that. Since you have had coccidia issues you may want to use a medicated such as Purina Goat Grower. My kids get that mixed 1/2 and 1/2 with alfalfa pellets starting with separation from dams at night, to help with stress induced coccidia loads. The alfalfa pellets are nice way to add extra calcium and you can even leave some out for them to nibble on during the day since they are just alfalfa hay in pellet form. I had to sort of shop around until I found the smaller pellets that are the same size as grain pellets. Some of them are a bit bigger, I think for horses. The ‘organic’ alfalfa pellets by StandLee are actually smaller than the regular ones.
I’ve never used molasses as a feed additive because of all the sugar. I give my goats iron injections for anemia and also supplement with UltraCruz Goat Iron Charge Plus per instructions from my vet. I have never used RedCell for my goats.
As far as grain and alfalfa for boys. They can have it until they are about 50% of their adult weight. For my herd of ND, that is typically about 5-6 months of age. This is when they will have a sharp decline in growth and no longer require all those extra nutrients.
Hopefullyvthe pale eyelid color is still just residual anemia. How long has it been since you had the negative fecal? It does take a few weeks for the color to start coming back, but there is always the chance of reinfection with worms. Barberpole worms start drinking blood almost immediately after being ingested from pasture. I keep my dewormed goats completely off pasture until they reach a FAMACHA of 3 to give them a better chance of recovering.
Tammy
Hi Deborah,
I left the regular hay for the goats but took the alfalfa hay for 2 or 3 days to see if it would make a difference in the pygmy's stool. It did not seem to change anything. Should I leave alfalfa hay out all day like regular hay? My goats eat it like it's crack. I usually let them out of the yard once or twice a day and they go strait to the bail and eat for a while before I pen them back up.
Also, I do have a quandary:
Neither my pygmy nor my ND will touch the regular hay. Ive seen the ND chew on one piece once and that's it. I thought they were eating it because it would be on the ground beneath the bag it is hanging in, but then as i've spent more time watching them, i've come to realize that they are just rubbing up against and playing with the bag--so no one is actually eating it. It is coastal hay (what the vet told me to get). My friend, who is a breeder, has purchased it and has had no issues with her goats refusing it. I'm not sure what to do.
I am trying to introduce more grain to the ND but today he randomly got a bought of diarrhea. It is day 2 with his own serving of grain (aside from his 2 bottles). I know yall said, no grain past 16 weeks due to urinary calculi and he is now 11 weeks old. So my concern is that he will not get enough to eat once fully weaned, since no one is eating the hay. I hope this isn't confusing. Sorry if it is!
-Kayla
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Her eye color is still pale but does not look like it has gotten worse. Her bloat is considerably better. My sister came over and immediately noticed the size difference. She appears to have energy and runs around from time to time. I have been putting a little black strap molasses on her feed to help with the anemia. The vet had suggested Red Cell but I felt uncomfortable with it as I had read it was hard on the rumen and I feel like she has had enough issues in that area. Her poo is still clumpy but no diarrhea. Thank you for the suggestions on bedding.
Tammy Gallagher said:
I think you misunderstood Tammy. Hay would be LESS likely to cause clumpy poop than fresh grass, so if you took away the hay, I'm guessing that fresh grass was all the goat had to eat, so you would see worse clumps.
Most people choose bedding based on whatever is cheap in their area and the goats won't eat. In Illinois, that means straw because we grow tons of wheat here. On the east coast, wood shavings are cheaper and plentiful because they have lots of lumber mills. Just be sure it's not something that your goats would be tempted to eat.
Hi Kayla!
I would just keep an eye on her. Do keep a check on the eyelid color to be sure it is improving and not getting pale again. And that her appetite stays good. It may just take a little time for her to recalibrate after the meds she has had and the changes in her diet.
If it turns into diarrhea, that calls for a vet visit so they can do some investigating. Considering how small this kiddo is, I would venture to guess that she may have some pretty bad residual effects to her intestinal lining from coccidiosis. Long term untreated cases can actually change the surface of the absorptive area and create problems with how they absorb nutrtition. Unfortunately, you may end up having a battle on your hands with keeping this little one in tip top health.
I use sudan hay on the floor of all my barns. It is a very large fiber, so goat pellets fall right throught it instead of sitting on the surface. We buy it in big round bales so it is very cost effective for us. Most people use straw =)
Tammy
Thank you for all this guidance! What do you use for bedding?
So I took the alfalfa hay away for the past 2 days but my pygmy's poop is still clumpy. Some is like clumped pellets but some are becoming partially "log-like." She finished her round of cocci meds recently and she is on probiotics. I am gradually reducing the oats she eats and increasing the goat feed. I'm a bit confused since she had a clean bill of health. Would you suggest just continuing to keep an eye on it or doing something more such as checking her temp? I am exhausted and don't know how yall do this with so many goats lol.
Also, I took a picture of her stool if that would be of any help.
Thank you!
-Kayla
Yayy! 3 strongyles is a negative fecal! Glad to hear they have completed the coccidia treatment and it sounds like they are on the mend! Great job!!!
Clumpy poop can mean all sorts of things. This time of year we sometimes see it if they get into too much green pasture too quickly and start eating a lot less hay. There is way more moisture in fresh pasture. As long as it corrects itself and does not turn into soft poop, I would not be super worried. I actually have a mama goat that gets clumpy poo every time she eats alfalfa hay. If I take it away for a day, it goes away, give it back and the clumps return. So I have to put her on alfalfa pellets and keep her out of the kids’ hay!
Now that the worms and coccidiosis are taken care of, she should be able to get better nutrition and that will slowly improve her coat. If you see her eating minerals, she is likely also taking some when you are not looking ;)
The rain isn’t as much of a concern as sanitation when it comes to coccidiosis. As long as they are not standing/laying in moist poopy/muddy areas, they should be fine. Just be sure to keep their sleeping area dry and clean. I add a little fresh bedding to the barn floor every evening so my kids are always on clean bedding. If it is rainy you may also want to add some straw to the areas where they congregate to stay out of the rain. This will keep them from standing in poo (that’s where the coccidia is naturally)
Yes- one area for nighttime is fine. They will sleep most of the night anyways. :)
Congratulations on the success with these two kiddos!
Tammy
Good evening Tammy,
I hope you are doing well! I called the vet again. The tech that ran the fecals was not there but the other one told me that the online notes said that the pygmy had 3 strongyle eggs and low cocci. She also said the ND had Mod cocci. She did not say there was a note regarding him having worms so I'm wondering if I misunderstood.
I just finished the second treatment for the cocci. They are also getting daily probiotics.
The Pygmy's FAMACHA looks noticeably improved. I am noticing clumped poop, however. I have yet to see who is passing it. I THINK it's her though. The ND has pooped a lot around me and his looks normal.
Both are acting normal and run around. Both are eating well. The ND is eating the purina minerals. The Pymgy doesn't seem to be much of a fan but she did take a tiny bit today. Her coat does not look great but I'm hoping it improves with time.
The ND has gained several lbs and getting milk and feed now. The Pgymy has not gained much but is at least gaining. I will be weighing them again tomorrow to see what progress they have made.
We are still working on our land and trying to figure out how we can rotate where they can forage. It rained today and will tomorrow so I know that puts them at risk for cocci flareups again. We have them in our front yard which is about 1.5 acres. We are building a small pen within the yard with a deer stand in it which we plan to use as the goat house. If we were to build a second grazing area, or at least a temporary movable pen, would it still be okay to put them back in the pen with the goathouse at night? Or would we need a second house as well? We don't have the money to do a whole lot right now so we are trying to improvise where we can.
Thank you both again for all yalls help. I had goats in the past but never had issues so this has been a new experience for me! lol So, I appreciate yall.
-Kayla.
I’m glad the little Pygmy’s egg count has come down. Unfortunately, without an actual number from before and after, it is hard to tell exactly how effective it was BUT “very low” is promising. It can take a few weeks for them to improve in the eyelid color, so if she is eating and drinking and acting/looking normal otherwise, I would not deworm her again right now. All goats are going to have some worms if they are in an area where worms are present. Remember- the more frequently that you use a specific dewormer on your property, the faster the worms will become resistant to it. So we only deworm when necessary.
It is no longer recommended that we worm off of fecal alone. Check the NDs FAMACHA score and make a decision from that. Other things to consider in conjunction with the FAMACHA score when making the decision to deworm would be unfavorable body condition, is there swelling under the jaw, rough and dull hair coat, clumpy and/or runny poop.
Yes- it is currently recommended to use combination dewormers (this means dewormers from different classes, not just 2 different dewormers) You give the full dose of the dewormer from the chart for each one. Give them right after each other- do not mix them into the same syringe. Since you have used Valbazen and Cydectin (cydectin oral sheep drench) on your homestead- I would stick with those 2.
I would go ahead and continue treating for coccidiosis as instructed.
I hope your little Pygmy starts gaining weight now that the parasite burden has been lifted.
Please keep us posted.
Tammy
Hi! I got their fecals done again today. Egg count was low in the pygmy. The vet tech said only treat if her famacha deems it necessary. She said my ND is very wormy and recommends treating him. (He was not treated prior). She also said high coccidia with the ND. Both were treated with Sulfadminethoxine and it was recommended i give another 5 days of it.
Additionally, the only dewormer I have is Valbazen. My Pygmy was given this in April and given Cydectin by vet recently. Once I have help today, Ill check her eyes to see if I think she needs another round. As for my ND, I will follow your chart and dose him with Valbazen. Also, I follow "Goating with Rosie" on facebook and it looks like she suggests using 2 dewormers at one time. What are your thoughts on this?
Tammy Gallagher said:
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