Does anyone know for sure if you can tell if the baby goats are polled or horned based on their fur on their foreheads ? (smooth fur if polled, swirls of fur if horned ?)
Thanks !!
I guess in just a few weeks I'll know for sure (when the horns grow in or not !).
Replies
That's new data I haven't heard. Lucky 10. But a pure polled goat will yield endless polled (yes, heterozygous) offspring.
The pure polled I'm after is for my broodstock, not for babies for sale. For the breeder, the point is to not disbud by having polled babies (therefore a pure polled parent is definitely an asset). You'll just have to educate the customers that yes, the polled babies are only heterozygous polled.
Well, still waiting for a polled buckling that isn't related to my registered polled doeling. I have a year to think about it.
I still may do polled to horned crosses. Disbudding didn't seem that bad today. We'll see if any scurs grow and if I have to disbud again.
Thanks for the new info. That sounds more reasonable - 10 consecutive and exclusively polled offspring. Certainly sounds more achieveable.
It is not seven generations to prove homozygous status -- it is number of kids that proves a goat is homozygous. And the number that I've always seen in research and by breeders is ten. If a buck or doe throws ten polled offspring and zero horned, they are considered homozygous, BUT if #11 is horned, then obviously you just got lucky with those first ten. You could prove a buck homozygous in a single year if you breed him to enough does. But kids or a homozygous polled-to-horned breeding are going to be heterozygous polled, so they'll have a 50/50 chance of horned kids. Using the term "pure polled" is going to be confusing for people because it makes it sound like you've developed goats that will only produce polled offspring, and you could only do that if you had all homozygous polled goats, which no one has successfully done.
Lisa Martin said:
I guess I should be more specific.
I put up a topic in our goat forum to explain the details of the polled breeding program I have in mind, with all the specific details.
See on our website EM Squared Farms in the Goat Forum under the topic "How to get a pure polled goat."
~Lisa
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Odds of having polled kids has nothing to do with number of generations. There is homozygous and heterozygous polled. Homozygous is one polled gene, and heterozygous is two polled genes. If you have two homozygous polled parents (each has one polled and one horned gene), you have a 75% chance of polled kids. With one or two heterozygous parents (two polled genes), you will get 100% polled kids -- period.
You DO run the risk of hermaphrodites if you breed polled to polled, but it's not 100%. One study with saanens had 10% hermaphrodites when breeding two homozygous parents and 25% incidence when breeding one homozygous and one heterozygous, but there have not been any studies done with NDs, so who knows what the incidence would be in this breed, as it does seem to vary somewhat between breeds. Some people also talk about sterile animals. I'm on the polled goat list, and some of the people on there have had other problems when breeding polled to polled also.
Lisa Martin said:
Dear Deborah,
Yeah, I think it's a little too late (maybe). The guy is coming to disbud on Monday. I'm hoping he's going to bring his (he did ask me what I bought) with maybe a bigger tip.
Maybe that's why my other breeder disbuds so early, since she has the small tip like I do. I'm just hoping it will fit over the horn nub.
Yeah, those stats are good stuff. I think I'll use that in my forum (quote you). Speaking of which - it is Jan. and you said you might have more time to make an appearance on my forum...have you given it any thought lately ? I'm sure you would have so much to offer on the site.
Well, I'll go ahead and upload my pics of Dancer and Blazer.
Thanks,
Lisa
p.s. yes, that does make me feel a little better. going to definitely put a baby goat in the disbudding box to figure out how it works
p.p.s. I use my phone's camera - sometimes it takes good pics (8 megapixel)
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Yeah, that's what I've heard until I got on the polled genetics group on Yahoo. They have changed my opinion. You should explore there.
I have a whole year to think about it. But at least I'm one step in the right direction - my registered polled doeling. I think it takes 7 generations of all polled to be considered pure polled. I don't know if that's possible if you're only supposed to breed 2x in 3 yrs. We'll see. A year is a long time.
Rachel Whetzel said:
If you go to your page on here, you have a photo album where you can put any photos that you want. I think all of the Blazer and Dancer pics look good for showing polled heads. Unfortunately, I'm not really seeing the swirls as obviously as I'd like. I've often said that I'd like to get pictures of good swirls, but I haven't been able to. I usually forget. To get a picture of swirls that a novice could recognize isn't easy. Hair just doesn't photograph well. It may be that you'd need a better camera to get clearer pictures. My camera is old and not taking great pictures any longer. I've been talking about buying a new one for at least a couple years already.
If your buckling with the biggest disbudding marks had scurs, can you imagine how big the scurs would have been if he'd been disbudded with a smaller iron? You might want to check the return policy of the place where you bought it.
If you it makes you feel any better, out of 250+ kids, I've never had one faint, and only one has peed on me.
Unfortunately, you CAN'T breed polled to polled goats without risking hermaphrodites. :(
I wanted to see if you liked any of the newer pics I put up (newborn ones - you can even see the swirls under the mucus covering them) and different days pic.
Let me know specifically which ones (I forget which Blazer and Dancer pics you liked - from what day ?)
And also, can you give me the link to the photo gallery you would like them ?
See the page below:
EM Squared Farms, Babies: Polled or Horned ?
Well, too late now. You would figure since we have dwarf goats that the mini-breed tip would be the right one (1/4" inside diameter). I don't know if the guy is bringing his or not. Mine is still in the box. Maybe for next time I could disbud them earlier. They barely have a bump now. We'll just have to work with what we have.
I did remember one breeder saying something about it, how that one breeder who disbuds so early uses the mini-tip.
But then again, my poor buckling had the biggest burn/disbudding marks on his head and he has scurs !
We'll do our best to get the disbudding iron around the horn bump/nub.
I'm still trying to figure out what that piece of wood is for in the middle of the disbudding box ? To suspend the goat. One of my friends said they may faint and could choke themselves, besides urinating on themselves.
I hope it all isn't too unpleasant or I may be ready to breed polled to polled next time (to go after a pure polled broodstock after I keep all those polled babies and cross them with a horned goat to see what I get - any horned or all polled). But then I have to goats to sell. We'll see.
I really like the Dancer and Blazer pictures. Did you put those on here yet? I've been traveling so could have missed it, if you did. I'm not sure if any of the swirl pictures would be that obvious for someone new. I'm having trouble seeing the swirls, even though I know what I'm looking for. The Cheerio photos with your fingers in the photos are probably the clearest. It isn't easy to get clear pictures of kids' hair. The lighting has to be just right and everything. Thanks!
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