Recently joined the group to learn more about these precious little goats which I purchased this past month. The most pressing thing right now is a butting issue. Both kids are supposed to be this spring's babies though the doe acts much older. She, Dixie, was here first by six days. She seems to delight in butting her stall mate, Dexter, a wether. This morning, she decided I am also fair game; this happened when I was giving them their grain treat. Maybe she thought Dexter was getting more than her.
The bottom line is the behavior needs to stop so I need advice as to what to do. My youngest granddaughter turns four next Saturday, and I am concerned her trusting nature may result in her getting butted in the head which would be bad enough without horns, but Dixie has horns. For her, a freak accident could be critical since she has already lost one eye to cancer the month before she turned two.
Next Saturday, I will be taking a class locally for keeping backyard goats so will learn much there that might be area specific as well as general info. In the meantime, suggestions about this butting thing will be appreciated. Someone told me that does are just mean but I cannot believe that even though of these two, the wether is the biggest sweetie. We are still working on the trust issue so I want to move forward carefully. I seem to have Dexter's trust but Dixie is a bit slower; maybe she feels betrayed because I brought someone else in. (?)
Thank you,
Glenna
(Video taken today at http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2103523711508&set=vb.1347933743&type=2&theater)
Replies
Thank you for the wonderful responses. So far, there has been no more head butting (to me) so this may have been a fluke (one can hope) but I will use the ear pinch if it repeats.
Tonight, I put them in front in the enclosure around the fish pond, thought it might be fun for neighbor kids to see them as they were trick or treating. However, they didn't seem to like it much there (so I took them back into the back yard after 15 minutes) but it was quite revealing. Dexter was rearing up at Dixie and butting back at her. I've not seen him respond to her before except to back away or run. Tomorrow, I will start watching more closely to see if he is more assertive in the regular habitat or if this was a "This is going to be my territory" thing in the different surroundings. Tonight it was almost like, "Okay there, Missie, I've had enough of this!"
The previous owner originally told me Dixie was a year old and Dexter was this year's baby. When I picked up Dexter, he told me they were both this year's babies - I think he was confused and forgot which one I bought before. Dixie seems much older than Dexter (behavior) and I cannot imagine her horns would be as "mature" as they are if she were only a few months old. When the vet checks them out, I'll surely have a better answer. This is how he described her in the advertisement: "one year old Brownie wants to make friends and a sweet goat" which described her more like she was before Dexter joined her on Day Seven. They are both just the sweetest critters ever! I'm really looking forward to the class this next Saturday (and getting the name of a good vet); after it, I will be designing my goat barn to be built before winter sets in. Both sweeties seem to be very happy with their current shelter so I am not sure how well they will transition. Perhaps I need to leave the old one in their pen and let them choose.
Again, thank you. :-)
It sounds like you need to work more with your grand daughter and your goats together if they will come to you and not her. It's very likely that they aren't comfortable with her, but are more with you...
I don't have any knowlege on how to "train" a goat not to head butt, so I can't really give you more on that... I do know though, that head butting is a natural and normal part of goat behavior, and that's what makes me worry about Dixie being horned. Even if you get her butting behavior under control, she will always be a goat with very real weapons on her head. There will always be a risk to you, the other goats in your herd, and especially your grand daughter for injury. That's why I suggested that she not be allowed to interact too closely with her.
I really really recommend that you not allow your grand daughter to pursue the goats like she was in the video. Help your goats learn that she is a friend with treats and scratches, and teach your grand daughter that "playing" with the goats means sitting in one spot, and doling out loves, NOT following them all over the pen when they come to see her. All of my goats are friendly, and none of them would view this as a pleasant experience. They would perceive that kind of behavior as being chased.
Remember too, that physical discipline does NOT mean hitting your goat. It means physically talking to your goat in a way they understand. Correction of bad behavior with physical action means that you are establishing yourself as dominant in a way your goats will understand. Goats are not gentle creatures with each other when they are working to establish herd order and dominance. Not that you have to be rough, but firm correction is not the same as beating your goat into submission. No one is suggesting that you do the latter. Even though they aren't dogs, I really do think they can be taught with tone of voice... they just don't always listen. lol I can see the spray bottle working because they don't like water. :)
I liked all the information/tips Jordana had for you...
~Spend LOTS of time with them so they know you are the queen of all, and keep your head above them, like sitting in a chair; this helps keep you separate and dominant.
That one in particular was one I wanted to talk about... because in your video, when your goats move to their spool, your grand daughter is automatically put in a sub dominant position in relation to your goats.
I hope more people can weigh in and give you some better pointers about butting! :)
Obviously, I gave too little information. The norm for interaction with my goats is that they come to me. Even though they come to me, I still go to their pen and sit on the stump to give them their treat or just to scratch them, etc. Both of them readily come to me, both in the pen and in the yard. Dexter loves being scratched and has let me handle his legs and feet though I only pet, rub, lift his legs inside the pen as I want him/them to be accustomed to that being the "working area." He is also learning "shake hands;" he loves to "hand" me his foot.
The video with my granddaughter was misleading in that before I went outside the pen to record her with them, she had been sitting on the stump and both of them were there with her having just been giving treats (they went to the spool when I got up); Dexter was also letting her pet his side and back. After they all ran from the pen, she stopped (at my direction) and Dexter came up to her and nibbled her hands (grain!); neither of them ran from her at that point but did not allow her to walk up to them, just backed away (it appeared to be "I come to you but you keep away").
The butting incident took place earlier in the day with just me. Both goats had been eating their grain treat from my hands. Dixie finished and left. Dexter, as he always does now, jumped up on the stump beside me, leaning against me. While I was petting him and talking to him, Dixie came back and butted me (she has often done that to Dexter, one quick butt and then walks off). Perhaps I am mis-applying human emotion here (jealousy) because of the specific circumstances, but I still need a solution for the butting if it happens again. I truly do not feel grabbing her and putting her on the ground is a good solution at this point as it would totally violate the trust built between us which is far less than with Dexter. I was hoping for a more "passive" solution; I had read that using a spray bottle and giving a quick squirt might stop it. She has only in the past few days started walking up to me in the yard and letting me pet her briefly before walking away, almost like she wants reassurance she is "loved" as much as Dexter who will walk up and stay with me to be petted/scratched for several minutes. I have been giving both of them a lot of time to build the trust as this is a long-term relationship; she just seems to be reacting more slowly, perhaps because of past experiences or just personality.
I understand that goats are not dogs, but with dogs (and cats), I have always found a stern word with the right tone of voice works; I just don't feel physical discipline is the best way. Unfortunately, because I have not had these youngsters most of their lives, it will take much longer for the voice to work - we are still working on their names and "come." We are getting there, however. Other than the spray bottle which I might not have with me if it happens again, the "bite" to the ear sounds reasonable - is that like a pinch or just a bit of pressure?
I agree with Rachel, she has put this very clearly. Goats respond best in learning to trust by having people sit in the pen with them. Just sit. Let them come up to you, their curiosity will bring them near. Nibbleing on your clothes is a way to get to know you and shows trust, just don't let them get pushy with it or really bite. No children should be in the pen until the goats are trusting YOU, and then they should sit quietly and have the goats come to them. I agree with Rachel that your goat is frightened. Her butting the other goat is establishing dominance; she has horns, she is bigger, she will be in charge. Butting YOU is a big no-no! There are a few ways to deal with this. When they are small sometimes you can push them away or pin them to the ground for a few moments to establish your dominance. If she is being chased or feels threatened by humans she will butt when she feels cornered, or try to scare you away, so trust may stop the issue. When we had adult sized goats with horns the herd queen decided to assert herself with my husband and I. Even though it is not recommended, we ended up having to grab her horns and get her down on the ground and hold her there repeatedly to get the point across we were in charge. She gave it several tries to make sure we would keep defeating her and was an excessive case, but after that she never butted a human again, but she did take her anger out on the herd.
Since you have a horned goat, there are some things to remember when children are around her.
~They must always be with an adult.
~NEVER hug the goat; if they get startled they may hook the child's neck or face!
~Be aware they may decide to defend themselves from anyone at any time, and be prepared to deal with it.
~Spend LOTS of time with them so they know you are the queen of all, and keep your head above them, like sitting in a chair; this helps keep you separate and dominant.
~Avoid letting them jump on you, if they do this to a child the child can be hurt unintentionally.
~Normal, friendly goat behavior is running up to you, rubbing on you, looking for face and neck scratches, nibbling lightly on loose clothes.
~ Bad nibbling or rude goaty behavior to a human that won't quit can generally be dealt with by pinching the top lip just under the nostrils. They don't like it, but it doesn't harm them. A "bite" to the ears is also something they understand as a rebuke, just be careful not to pull or hurt them. Most times you can push them away or turn and walk away when they are behaving badly and they will realize they are not getting the attention they want and will stop. Never, ever hit a goat! They will see you as mean if you do and become defensive.
~When teaching a goat to trust you, never reach over it's head or reach for it from behind. Rather, stay in your spot when the goat comes to you and let them nibble a little on your clothes and check you out. Reach your hand from in front of them to their breastbone and scratch their chest and lower neck. As they become comfortable with that, scratch their chin and cheeks always coming from the front or front/side so they can see your hand and move away if they wish. Eventually they will trust you enough you can reach for them at any time, and scratch their head and back and love on them, but it usually takes a week or two. Things that will slow it down is a noisy environment or sudden sounds or activity that startle them, or going for too much too fast. Also, some goats just are not as friendly by personality.
Head butting is a goat's way of establishing the herd order... and it's not to be taken lightly when it starts transfering to humans... it's pretty normal with herd mates, but it's not OK with people. It might be you're giving your goats too much "human" emotion and not truly understanding how goat speak works. There are certain goats that are just generally pushy, and as a general rule, those goats tend to be bottle raised... but watching your video, it's clear that your goats have not had much in the way of human contact. Personally, I think your goats might be scared. They are obviously not used to human contact, and not welcoming of it at all in your video. I'd take your grand daughter out of the equation imediately until you have personally spent time with them. They need to be much more relaxed around people before I'd allow her to interact with them without structured and instructed (as in you are moderating and telling her how to behave around them) interactions. Goats are a prey animal. From what I see, your goats don't see humans as friends. They certainly don't see your grand daughter as a friend. They are NOT playing with her. They are scared of her, and uncomfortable around her. I foresee a good defensive head butting in her future if she is allowed to interact with them without direction much more.
Headbutting is one of the reasons that disbudded goats are safer for the humans they live around, as well as their herd mates. No matter how "tame" you work with Dixie to become, the fact is, her horns will ALWAYS be a danger to your grand daughter, no matter how closely you watch them. I would not allow them together personally, given that your grand daughter cannot afford an accident with Dixie.
My applogies for sounding so harsh about this, but it truly is a serious matter. Your goats should at the very least be more comfortable around people before you allow your grand daughter to play with them. IMO, goats are not to be "played" with (as in running and playing together) as they are to be scratched and loved on. A good treat and a tummy scratch, and watching them play with one another should be the norm... when you start running and romping with a goat, or pushing on their faces, etc... you are acting like a goat, and when you start to pretend to BE a goat, they start TREATING you like one of them. Unless you have a skull of steel, I'd recommend NOT playing goat. :)
Allllllll that said, I'm sure there are goat people more qualified to answer some of your questions... these were just my concerns. I'm still very new to goats myself as far as knowing how to help curb behaviors and the like. I have been very lucky not to have faced many behavioral issues, and the one I did have, I butchered. :(