Breeding memo practices

Okay, folks, a buck was advertised that I was interested in breeding one of my girls to.  I had sent the link to my goat person who noticed something I did not.  Now I am wondering how common this is:  "Doe kid only service memo will be provided for ADGA registration of offspring"  So far, when I have had my girls bred, the service memo is provided that day, not after the kids are born.

I have some real reservations about this, especially considering his excellent milking lines and the fact that last year, Capri had four bucks out of five kids.  The same year, Summer had two of three, meaning that of the eight kids, six could be bound for the dinner table because they could not be sold as registered bucks if I were lucky enough to find a buyer.

How common is this?

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  • Even though your herd name would be on the registration, the bloodlines of the herd you get your stud service are still listed on the pedigree. (which I know YOU know... but just for other readers who might not) I think the limitations of registering bucks is more of a protection of genetics than it is protection of a herd name. Just my two cents. 

  • There are "Doe Only" service memos that are given at the time of breeding, so the registry is actually the one that enforces it. They won't register a buck if you send in a "Doe Only" service memo. Both AGS and ADGA have those.

  • First, I have decided that I am not interested in stud service that carries that limitation.  That I would likely wether all the boys anyway, that should be my choice that the boys don't breed.  I understand people wanting to protect their herd names and the integrity of their herds but the baby would not be carrying their herd name but mine.  I seriously doubt any serious breeder would buy a buck that is not proven any.

    Second, thank you, Michael, for the offer and the information.  I appreciate it.  The blue eyes and polled don't really matter that much but this buck is close and from a smaller line (more important) so that, and him being close, is why I considered him.  I have several high-quality bucks available to me with one being from a smaller line.

    Mostly, I wanted to know if a limited breeding memo provided *after* birth is a common thing.  It sounded a bit odd to me.  Also, in my case, last year, my breeder very unexpectedly died between breeding and when kids were registered so that could have gotten complicated if the breeding memo were not provided at breeding time.

    If I were to agree to such a thing, I would want the stud fee returned if there were only bucklings and I doubt anyone would want to do that.  I've been through too much with my senior doe in a very limited amount of time to agree to anything that would limit what I could do with her kids (only one from four last year, and three from five this year).  My does put five months of their lives and resources into producing babies; I don't take that lightly as none of us do.

    I think if I wanted that much control, I wouldn't do *any* outside breeding, only breed my buck to my own does.

  • Glenna,

    If either you can do AI or if your vet can do AI (on goats) you might consider going that route.

    I am not looking for business, and I don't know the shipment costs, etc., but I have a buck that is very, very good that is currently being collected in Texas. He is polled and blue-eyed and within NDGA standard height if that is what you are after specifically. I will send more details if you are interested. I think that last year when I checked, there were mailers which include a chill pack that go overnight, for semen straws. Not sure if that is still the case.

    I also know that there are semen straws available "out there" from various sources from very good bucks that might make AI a good option. Again, if you are interested, I would send a list. As an example, look at the straws available from this company:

    http://www.superiorsemenworks.com/xcart/home.php?cat=6  

    If I were in the U.S., I would certainly seriously consider the advantages of AI (not dealing with a stinky boy and not having to pay for his upkeep, potential for really great genetics) over purchasing a buck. 

    Just a couple of ideas, and it might help.

    -Michael

    (I sent a friend request to you if you want to contact me.)


    Glenna Rose said:

    Yes, I thought that was odd that she would offer driveway breeding but not give memos for bucklings which means I get nothing until kidding.  She does want test results less than a month old which is okay with me; it protects my girls as well as her herd.  However, if my doe's resources go to bearing kids and she has bucklings and I am fortunate enough to be able to sell one in tact, I don't want registration denied as that would undoubtedly kill the sale.  While it is unlikely I would ever be able to sell one intact, especially since I would have to wether them by three months simply because of being in town, I still want to be able to if the opportunity arose.

    Except for the memo thing, I would consider her buck since he is blue-eyed and polled (and within 15 miles).  He is a Camanna buck; Capri's father and paternal grandmother are Camanna goats though not in the same line.

    When I sell a wether to a family with children, it's rather cool for the children to have a registration certificate for their goat even though it will never reproduce.

    Yes, I know that ND wethers will mostly be pets or companion animals, but before I got my goats I had to accept that the little boys might be dinner.  I have a deal with my eldest son that any boys that don't get sold he can have with the understanding that they never serve any goat dish when I am at their house.  Some day, I might change about the meat, but it won't be soon.  I'm still trying to decide if I can even take the hide to have it tanned - hopefully, it is a decision I will never need to make and be able to find good pet homes for all the boys.  One would never believe I grew up on a farm and "harvested" chickens myself - in my defense, it was a different time (and not in town).  I've gotten soft in my old age.<g>

  • I would think a better practice on the breeder's end, would be for you to sign papers saying you understand that any buckling you have from that breeding would be required as part of the breeding contract, to be castrated. Not being able to sell an intat male would just be the luck of the draw... 

  • I was wondering how this breeder could enforce that.  When you give a person a service memo.  It just states that a doe was bred to this buck on a certain date and then the owner of the buck signs the form.  So even if you end up with one doeling and 3 bucks, she will need to give you a service memo for the breeding.  It is up to you to decide who will be registered or not.  Once she gives you the service memo, since you will doing the registering because you own the dam and the kids will carry your herd name, the person providing the buck cannot really prevent you from registering all the  bucklings.  In both ADGA and AGS they take photo copies of the certificate, so if you have several kids to register you can photo copy the certificate for each kid,s application.  Since AGS does not have an online pedigree search, they would not be any way for them to check what the person registered for a given doe.  I don't see how they could enforce that rule.  You could double check on ADGA since they do have an online pedigree search, but are they going to take the time to check all the does they serviced to see what was registered.  At that time they could not do anything or complain to anybody.

  • Yes, I thought that was odd that she would offer driveway breeding but not give memos for bucklings which means I get nothing until kidding.  She does want test results less than a month old which is okay with me; it protects my girls as well as her herd.  However, if my doe's resources go to bearing kids and she has bucklings and I am fortunate enough to be able to sell one in tact, I don't want registration denied as that would undoubtedly kill the sale.  While it is unlikely I would ever be able to sell one intact, especially since I would have to wether them by three months simply because of being in town, I still want to be able to if the opportunity arose.

    Except for the memo thing, I would consider her buck since he is blue-eyed and polled (and within 15 miles).  He is a Camanna buck; Capri's father and paternal grandmother are Camanna goats though not in the same line.

    When I sell a wether to a family with children, it's rather cool for the children to have a registration certificate for their goat even though it will never reproduce.

    Yes, I know that ND wethers will mostly be pets or companion animals, but before I got my goats I had to accept that the little boys might be dinner.  I have a deal with my eldest son that any boys that don't get sold he can have with the understanding that they never serve any goat dish when I am at their house.  Some day, I might change about the meat, but it won't be soon.  I'm still trying to decide if I can even take the hide to have it tanned - hopefully, it is a decision I will never need to make and be able to find good pet homes for all the boys.  One would never believe I grew up on a farm and "harvested" chickens myself - in my defense, it was a different time (and not in town).  I've gotten soft in my old age.<g>

  • I really couldn't say how common it is, but I'd guess that it isn't terribly common. However, I'm sure it is much more common with people who have high performing herds. Then again, most people with really high value goats don't even do buck services. Since we have NDs, most wethers will be pets or pasture ornaments, not dinner, if that helps. The vast majority of all bucks are wethered, even from really excellent herds.

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