I've just noticed my FF doe who is 3 months pregnant seems to be laying down a lot lately. She still gets excited about food and doesn't seem off in any other way, but definitely laying around more than she used to. I just wanted to ask if this is common at this stage of goat pregnancy, or should I be concerned?
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Thank you much that really, really important information.
My wife and I were already talking about the meaning of that feeding regimen, about the second "trimester" importance and possible reduction of feed in the third trimester, and we just could not make sense of it all. My wife said to remember that she "ate like a horse" in the third trimester while she was pregnant with our son, and he was a small baby!
Again, thanks,
Michael
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
For future reference, if you see anything written about goats prior to about 2004, take it with a grain of salt. Real research on goats has only been started within the last decade. When I wrote Raising Goats Naturally, I had a professor and researcher from Langston University look over all of my parasite information (26 pages) and a professor and researcher from Auburn University look over all of my nutritional information to be sure it was as up-to-date as possible. One of the great things about the Langston professor is that he told me where a lot of the bad info came from ... and basically it all boils down to the fact that no one was actually doing much real research in this country up until the last 10 years. Unfortunately, a lot of things written in the last 10 years even includes outdated information because not everyone bothers to keep reading the most recent research.
For future reference, if you see anything written about goats prior to about 2004, take it with a grain of salt. Real research on goats has only been started within the last decade. When I wrote Raising Goats Naturally, I had a professor and researcher from Langston University look over all of my parasite information (26 pages) and a professor and researcher from Auburn University look over all of my nutritional information to be sure it was as up-to-date as possible. One of the great things about the Langston professor is that he told me where a lot of the bad info came from ... and basically it all boils down to the fact that no one was actually doing much real research in this country up until the last 10 years. Unfortunately, a lot of things written in the last 10 years even includes outdated information because not everyone bothers to keep reading the most recent research.
Thanks so much ladies for your insight regarding feeding and the study. I did have some questions about the overall reliability of the study myself (and even they fact that it was for Pygmy goats rather than NDs), but it is the first actual scientific study and I have seen related to feeding pregnant dwarf goats, so I thought it most reliable. I did, however, question the babies born to does being fed the most grain at the end of pregnancy dying of starvation - that seemed counterintuitive, and made me think of human newborns of moms with gestational diabetes, who's blood sugars drop out after delivery because they are so used to an environment high in sugar and are now essentially starving...
Anyway, I will check the copper content in the loose minerals I am feeding and make sure they are getting enough, and cut the grain.
I totally agree with Deb's ideas about that study... only I'm not good enough to say it as well as she did. lol I can say, that in my personal experience so far, none of my kiddings have supported the findings of that study, so even *if* it were a balanced study by someone I knew and trusted, I would still have to go with what works for my herd, and that system ain't it. lol
Hang in there! Don't stress out too much. As you learn your own herd, and get to know your does, you'll get better at making judgement calls like this one. :)
Remember, you can always get those ketone strips and keep them in your cabinet just in case you see a decrease in appetite.
About that study -- I've seen it before, and although it is a legitimate study, it is not a good study. First of all, it is a very small number of goats. I have more goats giving birth here on my farm in a single year than the number of goats in the study. Second, there was something seriously wrong with the whole picture because their feeding plan does NOT explain why kids were dying. I don't feed my does grain when they're pregnant, and I don't have 45% of my kids dying or being born at 2.3#. I completely disagree with the conclusions drawn by the author of this study. My conclusion would be that the feed contained supplemental minerals that were necessary for fetal development, and by not giving the goats that feed, they were mineral deficient. If you've read my story of copper deficiency problems (here on the forum or in my book), you know that we used to have all sorts of problems with goats not getting pregnant, aborting, miscarrying, and giving birth to kids far too early for them to survive. It doesn't sound like these goats were necessarily copper deficient, but they were deficient in something that was vital for not only growth but vigor -- possibly selenium? We've had more than 400 kids here now, and I have seen zero correlation with kids dying when they're smaller at birth unless you get to 1.5# or less. This study is saying that 2.3# is "underweight," which I disagree with. I did learn this year that kids that size can't maintain their body temperature at below zero temperatures, but other than that they're as healthy as the 3# kids. The fact that they had goats requiring c-sections with kids under 4# also makes me wonder about the overall health of the does, as well as the fact that 15 does only gave birth to 27 kids, which is <2 kids per doe. African goats tend to have multiples, so if these goats are well nourished they should have >2 kids per doe average. Keep in mind that the study was done in Nigeria, where many environmental factors are also quite different than in this country -- and it was done in 1992 when no one knew much of anything about goat's nutritional needs. Back then, everyone still thought that goats were just like sheep and they should have NO copper in their diet.
There is no problem with simply discontinuing grain, especially when you are only giving 1/2 cup a day. When they say that changes in diet should occur gradually, they are talking about adding new things to the diet or changing a large portion of their diet.
You know, after reading and reading last night, and looking at pictures of body condition and other goat tails on this forum, I went out this morning and felt her all over and rechecked her tail, and I think she is probably in pretty good condition. I can feel her back bone and ribs without really any digging, and like I said her tail looks better. It no longer looks like a sausage.
Sorry to have bothered you so much about this. I tend to freak out when I think something is wrong (this has happened twice now :O ).
I did change her diet back when I noticed her tail looked "fat" - which I am thinking now must have been further back than I originally guesstimated, because I remember it got VERY cold when the buck was here in Dec. so I added a little alfalfa back to their usual timothy hay (that's what is sold in compressed bales at my TSC) thinking maybe they needed a bit of extra energy. So, that means at the time she got pregnant I had already pulled the alfalfa and grain from her diet, and she was getting strictly timothy hay, minerals, and what she could browse in the yard.
I did, however, start giving my does about 1/2 cup of Purina Goat Chow since day 61, per the study shared on this forum here http://kinne.net/drostudy.htm. I know a lot of people don't recommend graining at all during pregnancy, at least until the last 2 weeks, but this study seemed legit and I didn't want to neglect feeding the grain in the middle of pregnancy if that produces the best results for doe and kids. The study recommended a full cup during the middle of pregnancy though, and I'm probably only giving them about 1/2 cup, so I'm not even doing that correctly... *sigh* If I pull their grain, is it ok to just do it cold turkey, or do I need to wean it down?
Anyway, about the possible toxemia, I am going to watch her close, and I will check her urine if I think she is still acting funny. This morning she was her usual self, demanding food at the crack of dawn and jumping all around the queen to get at it. I think she is fine :)
Thank you so much. Your vast knowledge and willingness to share it with others on here is such a blessing.
If you have a vet who knows goats, that's priceless -- and very rare. Nothing beats an in person exam, however, if you have a knowledgeable vet. If not, you can buy some ketone strips at the pharmacy and check her urine yourself.
Have you corrected her diet since you realized she's overweight?
Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't heard of toxemia in goats, so I spent the day doing lots of reading, and now I'm a bit worried...
I think she did start this pregnancy on the heavy side - I realized that a couple months back when I read a discussion on here about checking the fleshy underside of the tail to gauge body condition, and at the time her tail definitely looked like a fat sausage. I think it has gotten a bit less "sausage-y", but nonetheless, I think she might be overweight. Obviously I have much to learn about nutrition management...
Anyway, my main question now though, is where do I go from here? I realize it is late in the game to be figuring this out, but I would love any advice anyone can give me. How would you manage a goat that "might" be showing early signs of toxemia? Do I need to get her to a vet to be checked out?
Three months seems a little early for her to be getting tired -- unless you think she looks really pregnant already. They don't usually start laying around more until they start to look big. However, the important thing is that she is still eating. If she starts to not eat, that's when you start to worry about toxemia.
Replies
Deborah,
Thank you much that really, really important information.
My wife and I were already talking about the meaning of that feeding regimen, about the second "trimester" importance and possible reduction of feed in the third trimester, and we just could not make sense of it all. My wife said to remember that she "ate like a horse" in the third trimester while she was pregnant with our son, and he was a small baby!
Again, thanks,
Michael
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
For future reference, if you see anything written about goats prior to about 2004, take it with a grain of salt. Real research on goats has only been started within the last decade. When I wrote Raising Goats Naturally, I had a professor and researcher from Langston University look over all of my parasite information (26 pages) and a professor and researcher from Auburn University look over all of my nutritional information to be sure it was as up-to-date as possible. One of the great things about the Langston professor is that he told me where a lot of the bad info came from ... and basically it all boils down to the fact that no one was actually doing much real research in this country up until the last 10 years. Unfortunately, a lot of things written in the last 10 years even includes outdated information because not everyone bothers to keep reading the most recent research.
Thanks so much ladies for your insight regarding feeding and the study. I did have some questions about the overall reliability of the study myself (and even they fact that it was for Pygmy goats rather than NDs), but it is the first actual scientific study and I have seen related to feeding pregnant dwarf goats, so I thought it most reliable. I did, however, question the babies born to does being fed the most grain at the end of pregnancy dying of starvation - that seemed counterintuitive, and made me think of human newborns of moms with gestational diabetes, who's blood sugars drop out after delivery because they are so used to an environment high in sugar and are now essentially starving...
Anyway, I will check the copper content in the loose minerals I am feeding and make sure they are getting enough, and cut the grain.
Thanks again :)
PS You were right. It's First Freshener. I *think* Junior Doe applies to a doeling that is within a certain age, and has never been bred.
I totally agree with Deb's ideas about that study... only I'm not good enough to say it as well as she did. lol I can say, that in my personal experience so far, none of my kiddings have supported the findings of that study, so even *if* it were a balanced study by someone I knew and trusted, I would still have to go with what works for my herd, and that system ain't it. lol
Hang in there! Don't stress out too much. As you learn your own herd, and get to know your does, you'll get better at making judgement calls like this one. :)
Remember, you can always get those ketone strips and keep them in your cabinet just in case you see a decrease in appetite.
About that study -- I've seen it before, and although it is a legitimate study, it is not a good study. First of all, it is a very small number of goats. I have more goats giving birth here on my farm in a single year than the number of goats in the study. Second, there was something seriously wrong with the whole picture because their feeding plan does NOT explain why kids were dying. I don't feed my does grain when they're pregnant, and I don't have 45% of my kids dying or being born at 2.3#. I completely disagree with the conclusions drawn by the author of this study. My conclusion would be that the feed contained supplemental minerals that were necessary for fetal development, and by not giving the goats that feed, they were mineral deficient. If you've read my story of copper deficiency problems (here on the forum or in my book), you know that we used to have all sorts of problems with goats not getting pregnant, aborting, miscarrying, and giving birth to kids far too early for them to survive. It doesn't sound like these goats were necessarily copper deficient, but they were deficient in something that was vital for not only growth but vigor -- possibly selenium? We've had more than 400 kids here now, and I have seen zero correlation with kids dying when they're smaller at birth unless you get to 1.5# or less. This study is saying that 2.3# is "underweight," which I disagree with. I did learn this year that kids that size can't maintain their body temperature at below zero temperatures, but other than that they're as healthy as the 3# kids. The fact that they had goats requiring c-sections with kids under 4# also makes me wonder about the overall health of the does, as well as the fact that 15 does only gave birth to 27 kids, which is <2 kids per doe. African goats tend to have multiples, so if these goats are well nourished they should have >2 kids per doe average. Keep in mind that the study was done in Nigeria, where many environmental factors are also quite different than in this country -- and it was done in 1992 when no one knew much of anything about goat's nutritional needs. Back then, everyone still thought that goats were just like sheep and they should have NO copper in their diet.
There is no problem with simply discontinuing grain, especially when you are only giving 1/2 cup a day. When they say that changes in diet should occur gradually, they are talking about adding new things to the diet or changing a large portion of their diet.
You know, after reading and reading last night, and looking at pictures of body condition and other goat tails on this forum, I went out this morning and felt her all over and rechecked her tail, and I think she is probably in pretty good condition. I can feel her back bone and ribs without really any digging, and like I said her tail looks better. It no longer looks like a sausage.
Sorry to have bothered you so much about this. I tend to freak out when I think something is wrong (this has happened twice now :O ).
I did change her diet back when I noticed her tail looked "fat" - which I am thinking now must have been further back than I originally guesstimated, because I remember it got VERY cold when the buck was here in Dec. so I added a little alfalfa back to their usual timothy hay (that's what is sold in compressed bales at my TSC) thinking maybe they needed a bit of extra energy. So, that means at the time she got pregnant I had already pulled the alfalfa and grain from her diet, and she was getting strictly timothy hay, minerals, and what she could browse in the yard.
I did, however, start giving my does about 1/2 cup of Purina Goat Chow since day 61, per the study shared on this forum here http://kinne.net/drostudy.htm. I know a lot of people don't recommend graining at all during pregnancy, at least until the last 2 weeks, but this study seemed legit and I didn't want to neglect feeding the grain in the middle of pregnancy if that produces the best results for doe and kids. The study recommended a full cup during the middle of pregnancy though, and I'm probably only giving them about 1/2 cup, so I'm not even doing that correctly... *sigh* If I pull their grain, is it ok to just do it cold turkey, or do I need to wean it down?
Anyway, about the possible toxemia, I am going to watch her close, and I will check her urine if I think she is still acting funny. This morning she was her usual self, demanding food at the crack of dawn and jumping all around the queen to get at it. I think she is fine :)
Thank you so much. Your vast knowledge and willingness to share it with others on here is such a blessing.
If you have a vet who knows goats, that's priceless -- and very rare. Nothing beats an in person exam, however, if you have a knowledgeable vet. If not, you can buy some ketone strips at the pharmacy and check her urine yourself.
Have you corrected her diet since you realized she's overweight?
Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't heard of toxemia in goats, so I spent the day doing lots of reading, and now I'm a bit worried...
I think she did start this pregnancy on the heavy side - I realized that a couple months back when I read a discussion on here about checking the fleshy underside of the tail to gauge body condition, and at the time her tail definitely looked like a fat sausage. I think it has gotten a bit less "sausage-y", but nonetheless, I think she might be overweight. Obviously I have much to learn about nutrition management...
Anyway, my main question now though, is where do I go from here? I realize it is late in the game to be figuring this out, but I would love any advice anyone can give me. How would you manage a goat that "might" be showing early signs of toxemia? Do I need to get her to a vet to be checked out?
Three months seems a little early for her to be getting tired -- unless you think she looks really pregnant already. They don't usually start laying around more until they start to look big. However, the important thing is that she is still eating. If she starts to not eat, that's when you start to worry about toxemia.
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