Hello, we are new to this group and excited that we found it and looking forward to learning information that is actually helpful! I am tired of going to Mr. Google Pants and learning something new and different every time! We are located in Saskatchewan, Canada. We purchased our very first Nigerian goats this spring. Two does, one buck and one wether. Since then, it seems like we have had nothing but questions, frustrations, and finding good information is hard. The breeders I purchased from have definitely helped a bit but there just seems to be so much varying information out there. I'll give you a little background here. Our goats were born between March 15 to the 18th so they are around 14 weeks old. Their weights are as follows: Mocha (doe): 12.6 lbs, Pixie (doe): 16.2 lbs, Winston (wether): 20.8 lbs, Clyde (buck): 19.6 lbs. They have free choice loose goat mineral, loose salt, and baking soda. Good grass hay is very hard to find in our area so I've been feeding them alfalfa, they have access to some grass, and I am also giving some timothy hay pellets everyday mixed with a little bit of goat grower pellets. I made feeders so they eat up off the ground. Shortly after arriving they started having very large rounded bellies. At first I thought bloat but after researching decided it wasn't. They had a bit of clumpy poop and a day or two of runny poop (nothing severe though). The large bellies continued and they also didn't seem just super active. Last week one broke out with bad runny poop so I brought samples to the vet. They all came back with worms and coccidia. They were prescribed Ivomec (1 ml for every 25kg) which I was told to inject in the neck and Baycox (4 ml for every 20 lbs) which I gave orally. The goat that had the runs so bad cleared up very quickly. Now the two does look so much better, no runny poop and their stomachs are smaller but the buck and wether still are sort of large. I’m at a point where I don’t know how to go forward. I’ve since read that you should never inject wormers so now what do I do? My instructions from the vet are to repeat it in two months (the Ivomec) and then every year if they aren’t in milk. Could the smallest one be malnutritioned or why is she so small? I apologize in advance if I have far too many questions for this forum but greatly appreciate any help I can get.
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Hi Darwin- thanks for sending the photo.
Although photos can be a little decieving, if I had a membrane color like this on goats that had recently been treated, I would be happy. Anemia can take weeks to recover from, especially when there is also a coccidia load. Since these guys are still young, I would keep a close eye on them, and if anyone starts to move away from the color you have right now, then definately do the Ivermectin drench or if needed a 2 class combo drench mentioned before. Young goats can go down faster with anemia causing parasites because they do not have large reserves like the adults do, but it appears that you are in front of this!
Do also continue to monitor for diarrhea, changes in body condition, and anything out of ordinary such as lagging behind and loss of interest in food. Getting ahead of the train is always in their best interest and improves swiftness of recovery =)
Tammy
Unfortunately, there are no great minerals labeled for goats in Canada. Every time someone from there contacts me we just have to go through whatever is available locally and find the best option. As I said, this looks like one of the best I've seen from Canada. I just don't understand all of the label directions to add other stuff, which would then make it off balance. If others in your area are using this as a free choice mineral, I'd go with it. As long as you know symptoms of various deficiencies, you can deal with them if they occur.
Hi Tammy, attached is a picture of one of our goats lower eyelids. I won't upload a picture of each eye as they all seemed pretty much the same.
Tammy Gallagher said:
Eyelid.jpg.pdf
Good morning Deborah, yes others are using this mineral as free choice. I asked on a local Facebook page and this is what was recommended. I don't know if it's just me and I can't find stuff or what but it seems like our options for this sort of stuff is somewhat limited for us. Maybe I just don't know where to shop!
Thanks again.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
This is very odd and frustrating. Their guaranteed analysis looks good, but then they are telling you to add all of these other things, including calcium and magnesium, which is going to change their analysis, and they don't give you any info on what it will be. Usually in the US, they will tell you the analysis of the product "as sold" and then the analysis when mixed up as directed. And even weirder they just tell you to add even MORE calcium if you're feeding it to lactating goats -- but they don't tell you HOW MUCH.
On the website you linked earlier, it says this has the equivalent of 10% salt. On the feed tag, it says equivalent to 1% salt, which does not give me much confidence that they know what they're doing. Since salt is 40% sodium, that means that the website is right, and the bag is wrong. It is 10% salt.
As I suspected though, this is meant to be added to grain -- not used as a free choice mineral -- even though the analysis is pretty similar to what we see in some of the better quality free choice minerals in the US.
Do you know anyone using this as a free choice mineral? Obviously you have to start somewhere and then make adjustments as you see challenges and successes. I wish it were more straight forward.
Hi Deborah, I have attached a photo of the tag. Maybe I am reading it all wrong.
I will check out the Goats 365, it may be just what I need!
Thanks!!
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Goat Minerals 1.jpg
Thanks for clarifying my question about the dewormer, that makes sense now.
I will try and get you pictures of the eyelids in the next day or say.
We will bump up their grain intake to 1.5%, glad to hear there is still hope for them!!!
We will also take special care to keep their eating and sleeping areas as clean as we possibly can.
Thanks again!
Tammy Gallagher said:
Please take a picture of the instructions on the bag. We need to know exactly how much of the ingredients they are talking about mixing together. It really makes no sense to add those thing, especially when you already have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. If you add limestone, then you are going to throw it way out whack with high calcium, which could lead to zinc deficiency... and since there are different types of limestone with different amounts of calcium and magnesium, you would wind up with a product of unknown nutritional value. The guaranteed analysis of the Goat Premix is actually one of the best I've seen, so adding to it is super confusing!
Just in case you're interested in more personal help, we do have Goats 365, which includes access to six courses on goat care, health, nutrition, parasites, and more. https://thriftyhomesteader.teachable.com/p/goats-365/
Hey there Darwin!
I am going to defer to deborah on this very strange mineral recommendation ;) Most of the minerals that I am familiar with are complete minerals that you put out for the goat to consume free choice- all the mixing and calculations have been done for you, which makes it so much easier. The confusing part for me with these is their recommendation to offer free choice salt. If the goats are going to the plain salt, they have absolutely zero reason to go to the minerals , which according to the analysis, does have about a 10% salt already. The goats are drawn to the salt in the minerals and typically that is measured in a balance for the goat to consume X amount of salt daily, which also has them consuming a comparable amount of minerals- I hope that makes sense! The unfortunate thing is that minerals, with the exception of Selenium (at least here in the US), are not really regulated, so we see all sorts of crazy blends.
DEBORAH- this is the mineral he is using - https://bit.ly/3mU8qK9 . I’m using the CO-OP 2:1 ELITE GOAT PREMIX-and the bag says to "make a complete feed ration with grain, limestone, magnesium oxide, salt, & dynamate. It then also says to offer free choice salt as well. "
I'm sorry about the confusion with my comment to start from scratch- I meant from an assesment standpoint =) Assistance with worm loads is tricky via email communication. I actually teach a 5 hour workshop that only covers parasite education, assesment of the animal, and management of the parasites on your farm and in your animals- so there are MANY factors to consider when it comes to parasite education, management, and treatment. If you have 2 people available, one to expose the lower eyelid and one to snap a photo, I would love to see where you are with color status right now and then help to determine best course of need for deworming.
Your goats are on the small side, but you are aware of that and trying to improve the situation while they are still young and still growing- so that is in their favor! There is definately some lost growth time but proper nutrition and parasite management will help them to reach optimal potential from this point forward. Its great that they are eating alfalfa and I would consider bumping at least the girls up to 1.5% of their body weight daily in the grain ration. Also be sure that their sleeping area is kept very clean to reduce the potential of them getting coccidiosis again. In addition, any areas that they congregate in, such as around hay feeders, should be kept free of goat poop as well. A sprinkling of straw so pellets may fall down under can be helpful. Once they hit about 6 months of age they should have a pretty good immunity to coccidia in general.
Dewormers have 3 drug classes-
Benzimidazoles-such as Safeguard and Valbazen
Macrocyclic Lactones- such as Ivermectin and Cydectin
Cell Depolarizers- such as Levamisole and Rumatel
Some of these dewormers have 3 available routes of administration- oral drench, pour-on, injectable but GOATS SHOULD ONLY EVER HAVE THE ORAL DRENCH FORM =)
Since you gave the injectable form of Ivermectin, I would stick with that class, but not that form- you would want to use the oral drench Ivermectin the next time you need to use a dewormer. Sometimes it is necessary to use 2 different drug classes at the same time and sometimes it is necessary to use all 3 classes at the same time. But this typically is needed after resistance has started on your property to one of the classes or if you have a very significant worm load to deal with.
Tammy
Hello Tammy,
For the minerals I'm feeding, it gives directions to make a complete feed ration with grain, limestone, magnesium oxide, salt, & dynamate. It then also says to offer free choice salt as well. Since I'm not making that ration, should I just offer free salt? They definitely are eating minerals I'm giving them with out the salt.
Just to clarify, from what I'm reading in your replies my goats are on the small side. I will continue feeding them full alfalfa, approximately 1% of the grain mixture a day and access to pasture. Is there anything else I can do to try and help compensate for their small size and the fact they may have been taken off milk to early? We are hoping to be able to milk them as adults so hope we are not off to a bad start here.
As far as worming, can you just confirm your comments about starting over from scratch? You then suggested to keep using what we started with but that would need to be injected again. And I'm guessing not give at the two month as the vet recommended but rather only when worms are confirmed again?
Just an update on their overall health and appearance. The girl goats have thinned right down, no more hay bellies, and are eating alfalfa like crazy. The boys are still a tad round but eating well. Their eyelids are a wee bit pink but not bright at all.
Thanks again for all your helpful information. It is greatly appreciated!!
Darwin
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