I am a newbie goat owner. I have a 4-month-old wether (along with two doelings). He has obviously not been feeling well today - he is listless, lays down at odd moments, and stands "funny" sometimes - standing almost like he has bloat (based on a video I saw), but his sides are not distended at all (in fact his flanks are slightly sunken), and he does wander around and eat randomly, but not like normal - in fact, this morning he showed no interest in the oat/BOSS/grain mix they get (they only get 1/4 cup apiece per day).
Anyway, I have seen him urinate twice in the last two hours, so I don't think it could be a stone. I wormed the goats for the first time last night, using Molly's Herbals (Formula #1)...I'm wondering if that might be it. Can goats be allergic to that? Or if he has worms, might he react funny to being wormed? Or might there be something else going on?
They have access to baking soda and minerals (Manna Pro) all the time. He hasn't eaten anything strange as far as I know. He does let me approach him; in fact, he lifts his head to be scratched and wants to be near me.
I don't know. Am I over-reacting? Should I finish the 3-day worming schedule with Formula 1?
When do you get to the "call the vet" phase? (Preferably during office hours, but somehow my animals never seem to need a vet during normal office hours!).
Oh - he ate just fine last night. They are on their last week of getting a night bottle, and he took his just fine. So this is new today.
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Here is a picture of him...he still looks dull, but he is eating and took a full bottle tonight and continues to improve. I now have second thoughts about whether he needed an antibiotic, but I'm mid-course & need to finish now.
Thanks so much for your help, Deborah. You probably saved this little guy's life! He is very affectionate and sweet and we're glad he's going to make it!
If you already have the Molly's, you might as well use it, but I would not assume that it is going to make a big difference. There is a study somewhere on the site I linked that showed no difference between two groups of goats -- one group that got it and one that did not get it.
There is no reason to give Safeguard again unless a goat has tapeworms, and the more you use it, the quicker you will wind up with barber pole worms that are resistant to it.
Thanks for that info, and thanks for the link. I will read when my eyes aren't crossing due to tiredness.
I was actually wondering about worming again so soon when the vet told me the schedule, but I didn't really know what was proper. I did give him (the goat's name is J.B.) the Safeguard tonight (before I read your post), but I'm assuming it would be better to stop now? Or should I finish the 3-day regime since I started it? I have not seen any tapeworms in the poop - I know what it looks like from when we had a dog who had them, so I think it was just B.P. worm.
I also wormed the girls with Ivermectin, as they are definitely looking more pale than they should. I will not use Safeguard on them, though.
Here is a question, though - if I continue to use Molly's herbal wormers (now that I've hopefully cleared the goats with Ivermectin), will that most likely keep the BP worms away? I mean, I will continue to check their eyelids and gums, but I'd like to avoid having to use the chemical wormers, or is that not realistic? I REALLY don't want to end up in this situation again.
Glad to hear he's doing better! I know that it might seem reassuring to throw so many dewormers at the kid at this point, but in the long run, it could be counter-productive. Safeguard for three days is really only necessary for tapeworms, which do not cause anemia, and you can see tapes in the poop. They look like noodles or rice. Since you already saw an improvement with the ivermectin, the Safeguard is probably not needed at all.
The idea of routinely deworming two weeks later is fairly outdated. If he still looks anemic, then yes, by all means, use it again. Personally I would not even wait two weeks to give a second dose if he is not on the mend. But if he is no longer anemic and is back to his normal goatie self, if you use the dewormer again, you are only increasing the number of dewormer-resistant parasites on your pasture. If it was only one goat out of a herd of 20, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but one goat out of three is creating a high percentage of dewormer-resistant worms.
There are only three types of dewormer in the U.S., so it doesn't take very long to wind up with worms that are resistant to every type of dewormer. No dewormer kills 100% of the worms, so every worm that survives a deworming is resistant, and they will probably have offspring that are resistant. This website has the latest research on worms in goats:
And it just so happens that at the moment, the article on the home page is a nice overview. If you want to read more, just click on the "Parasite control" link, and you can read for hours!
6 p.m. update. Wether continues to improve, albeit progress is very slow. He rec'd B vits shot at vet, plus she felt it was good idea to give him antibiotics since he had a bit of a fever and is so drug down, so he will get more shots of those every other day. She also wanted me to use SafeGuard/Fenbendazole for the next three days and then to repeat the whole shebang (both wormers) in two weeks, plus Red Cell given by mouth for next 6-8 weeks.
At this point, we're both beat! But I'm glad to say that he looks like he'll make it....he's out eating grape leaves as I write.
Thanks for all your input, Deborah. It really did help.
A kid that age is typically very happy to suck down an 8 to 12 ounce bottle in about a minute flat! If he can drink, there is no need to drench him -- and drenching always comes with the risk of putting fluid into the lungs. The only reason I drenched that buck was because he could barely hold up his head, much less drink. If your little guy will take a bottle, then give him one. There is no need to hold back on milk right now, especially if it's raw goat milk. It will do him more good than just about any drug at this point. (now that you've already given him the dewormer)
I don't normally like the idea of whole herd worming, but since you just brought in your first three goats to "clean" pasture, and the stress of moving can cause a small load of parasites to multiply, it is actually a good idea to deworm them. Hopefully you have another clean pasture where you can move them. And keep them off of the pasture where they've been for at least a couple of months. Although if you get very little rain, the larvae may die faster on your pasture.
8 a.m. report - he is on his feet and eating! (well, he's not eating a lot, but at least he is showing interest).
He still is going to the vet at 10:30. I'm sure he'll need iron & B12 shots and who knows what else. His gums and even tongue are pale pink. What a learning curve. The problem with being a newbie is that you're not even aware that you're making assumptions ("it's too hot and dry here for real barber pole worm problems"...."the goats are still so young and on fresh pasture, worms can't yet be a problem") until it becomes blatantly obvious that you don't know what you're doing.
What is an appropriate amount to drench an ND (in terms of ounces or ml)? He only took 2 oz. of milk mixture this morning, so I'm thinking he should have more fluid, but I'm not sure how much to give him.
I looked at the other two goats' eyelids this a.m. While much better than my wether, they are not as red as they should be. I just finished giving them 3 days of Molly's #1 formula, but I think I'm going to hit them with some Ivermectin just to be on the safe side.
I am so glad you posted this - I remembered that I had some general electrolytes for livestock (powder). I mixed some molasses, the electrolytes, and a little water and drenched him. He then wandered off and ate about 5 or 6 rose leaves and then I offered him 3-4 goat treats (the licorice-flavored ones), just to see if he would eat them, and he did. (I don't think the electrolytes worked that fast, but perhaps the worming this morning combined with all the little sips of milk/Red Cell/molasses did help a little.
I had an ER vet appt, but they are running so behind that I can't get him in until almost 10 p.m., so I scheduled instead for the a.m. I hope he makes it! I'll give him one more milk dose before bed. If he doesn't take that, I might drench him with some more sugar water.
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You're welcome! He looks like a sweety! I'm so glad he's doing better!
Thanks so much for your help, Deborah. You probably saved this little guy's life! He is very affectionate and sweet and we're glad he's going to make it!
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There is no reason to give Safeguard again unless a goat has tapeworms, and the more you use it, the quicker you will wind up with barber pole worms that are resistant to it.
I was actually wondering about worming again so soon when the vet told me the schedule, but I didn't really know what was proper. I did give him (the goat's name is J.B.) the Safeguard tonight (before I read your post), but I'm assuming it would be better to stop now? Or should I finish the 3-day regime since I started it? I have not seen any tapeworms in the poop - I know what it looks like from when we had a dog who had them, so I think it was just B.P. worm.
I also wormed the girls with Ivermectin, as they are definitely looking more pale than they should. I will not use Safeguard on them, though.
Here is a question, though - if I continue to use Molly's herbal wormers (now that I've hopefully cleared the goats with Ivermectin), will that most likely keep the BP worms away? I mean, I will continue to check their eyelids and gums, but I'd like to avoid having to use the chemical wormers, or is that not realistic? I REALLY don't want to end up in this situation again.
Janet
Glad to hear he's doing better! I know that it might seem reassuring to throw so many dewormers at the kid at this point, but in the long run, it could be counter-productive. Safeguard for three days is really only necessary for tapeworms, which do not cause anemia, and you can see tapes in the poop. They look like noodles or rice. Since you already saw an improvement with the ivermectin, the Safeguard is probably not needed at all.
The idea of routinely deworming two weeks later is fairly outdated. If he still looks anemic, then yes, by all means, use it again. Personally I would not even wait two weeks to give a second dose if he is not on the mend. But if he is no longer anemic and is back to his normal goatie self, if you use the dewormer again, you are only increasing the number of dewormer-resistant parasites on your pasture. If it was only one goat out of a herd of 20, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but one goat out of three is creating a high percentage of dewormer-resistant worms.
There are only three types of dewormer in the U.S., so it doesn't take very long to wind up with worms that are resistant to every type of dewormer. No dewormer kills 100% of the worms, so every worm that survives a deworming is resistant, and they will probably have offspring that are resistant. This website has the latest research on worms in goats:
http://www.acsrpc.org/
And it just so happens that at the moment, the article on the home page is a nice overview. If you want to read more, just click on the "Parasite control" link, and you can read for hours!
At this point, we're both beat! But I'm glad to say that he looks like he'll make it....he's out eating grape leaves as I write.
Thanks for all your input, Deborah. It really did help.
A kid that age is typically very happy to suck down an 8 to 12 ounce bottle in about a minute flat! If he can drink, there is no need to drench him -- and drenching always comes with the risk of putting fluid into the lungs. The only reason I drenched that buck was because he could barely hold up his head, much less drink. If your little guy will take a bottle, then give him one. There is no need to hold back on milk right now, especially if it's raw goat milk. It will do him more good than just about any drug at this point. (now that you've already given him the dewormer)
I don't normally like the idea of whole herd worming, but since you just brought in your first three goats to "clean" pasture, and the stress of moving can cause a small load of parasites to multiply, it is actually a good idea to deworm them. Hopefully you have another clean pasture where you can move them. And keep them off of the pasture where they've been for at least a couple of months. Although if you get very little rain, the larvae may die faster on your pasture.
He still is going to the vet at 10:30. I'm sure he'll need iron & B12 shots and who knows what else. His gums and even tongue are pale pink. What a learning curve. The problem with being a newbie is that you're not even aware that you're making assumptions ("it's too hot and dry here for real barber pole worm problems"...."the goats are still so young and on fresh pasture, worms can't yet be a problem") until it becomes blatantly obvious that you don't know what you're doing.
What is an appropriate amount to drench an ND (in terms of ounces or ml)? He only took 2 oz. of milk mixture this morning, so I'm thinking he should have more fluid, but I'm not sure how much to give him.
I looked at the other two goats' eyelids this a.m. While much better than my wether, they are not as red as they should be. I just finished giving them 3 days of Molly's #1 formula, but I think I'm going to hit them with some Ivermectin just to be on the safe side.
I had an ER vet appt, but they are running so behind that I can't get him in until almost 10 p.m., so I scheduled instead for the a.m. I hope he makes it! I'll give him one more milk dose before bed. If he doesn't take that, I might drench him with some more sugar water.
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