Okay, I am almost at wit's end. The test results are back showing Dancer, my almost two-year-old, is not pregnant. Ginger miscarried last week so is not pregnant. As far as I know, there are no mineral issues. They were both with the same buck.
You may recall that I left Ginger (now three) there for two months because she was overweight. She did, apparently, settle in mid-December but miscarried one partially mummified baby last week.
I took Dancer twice, and she seemed to have settled the second time down.
A year and a half ago, it was two trips for Capri with the same buck. I thought because she caught pneumonia after the first trip that she didn't settle because she was stressed by going to a strange farm and the day she got home, we started an unseasonably cold snap for several days. She settled the next trip six weeks later.
The history with the "regular" buck is that I took my does three times (Capri once and Summer twice) and all three times settled on the first trip and wonderful kids. My initial thought could be that there is a problem with the buck settling my does but she has her own does and doesn't seem to have had any problem. Now with Dancer's last trip, I *know* she would have been in heat while there because I took her down a few days early to ensure she was there and she had a friend (Ginger) there as well.
Ideas as to what you would do if in my place will definitely be appreciated.
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It's mostly a few people sharing their personal experiences, and I think they were breeding standards out of season. In articles published from universities, they mostly mention "buck effect" in regards to breeding out of season for meat or standard dairy, and I haven't seen one that mentions the first heat being infertile yet. I did read one that said that said buck effect was most useful for starting the breeding season earlier in the fall, rather than for breeding in the off season.
The first time I heard it mentioned, though, was in this Youtube video that I stumbled upon while watching the videos about how to do DHIR testing through Langston: https://youtu.be/joX2u6wi3r4 He just briefly mentions it and doesn't give any detail, although he must be talking about meat goats since that is what is shown in the video.
I've been reading a lot about this subject lately in part because I find it interesting, but mostly because I'm struggling to get two of my does pregnant and am looking for possible answers about that. I'm hoping it's something as simple as bad timing, their first cycle with the buck not being a fertile heat, or buck incompatibility -- the first buck I tried with them last year didn't settle any of the does he was with, and the second one was a little bit younger than the one they are with now (although he did settle the other doe he was with). It also could have potentially been a selenium problem, since I was only using the paste up until this year.
I definitely have all possible dates written down. If the first heat was infertile, the two does who are with the buck now should go back into heat around April 15th. If they don't, I'll send pregnancy tests off after April 25th and hope for the best! If they're negative again, I'm not sure what I'll do at that point.
Interesting observation. I've never seen that. My does have almost always gotten pregnant on the first heat after being put with a buck. I can only think of one doe that didn't give birth about five months plus a week or two after being put with a buck. I wonder if people who have made this observation were attempting off-season breeding, or if there was some other variable? Was this something that someone was writing about from their personal experience, or was it a scientific study? If you saw a breeding, I'd definitely mark it on the calendar, just so you don't get an unpleasant surprise in five months.
Unfortunately, if disease was suspected, the fetus and placenta should have been sent to a lab. Here is more info on diseases that cause abortions:
http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0079/UNP-0079.pdf
Rachel, what does this sentence mean? "I was mostly relying on buck-effect heat without knowing that the first heat following introduction to a buck is often not fertile." I've read it a few times and don't understand.
Answers to questions.
Yes, September was the last time I gave it. I just found my copper again this week and they will all get some again this weekend.
Yes, stray cats come through all the time though no young ones, maybe not as much as I think since I chase them out. I understood the young ones are responsible for toxoplasmosis. Until last year (for both years of kiddings here), I had my own cat. Capri, especially, was very wary of my cat even though she didn't go near Capri. When Capri had very young kids, she was especially watchful of my cat when she saw her.
There are a lot of possums around (and don't fear the goats at all from what I can tell) and squirrels by the truckload - do either of those matter? I do have hens again, but rarely let them out of their pen since I don't have their chicken yard fence in place yet.
Since the baby was partially mummified, it certainly might be possible they both miscarried at the same time, with Dancer losing the baby then and Ginger carrying it for a while. Honestly, I didn't consider that. However, I've not seen any sign of any discharge for Dancer and I was watching her for signs of her coming back into heat in case the second breeding didn't settle.
What do you ask for testing for abortive diseases? It is blood work?
How do you give selenium free choice - is it a powder, like minerals or baking soda? Is there any danger of them overdosing on it?
Summer has been really mean to Ginger since she got back. The vet didn't want to venture that Summer may have slammed her too hard or that it wasn't a possibility. I do know that I am considering keeping them separated when I know Ginger is pregnant again. Since I have four, I can pair them up to be together. I don't know if this has anything to do with Capri being gone; it didn't happen with her here, just the usual posturing but not downright mean like she has been. Ginger has been back a month and a half and Summer has been mean for a month or so. Ginger would hang out with Capri and Capri was gone when she came back leaving me to wonder if I made a mistake letting Capri go. Summer was there when Ginger was born - if she were human, it would be big sister stuff. I have even wondered if Summer is angry that Ginger was pregnant and she is not but tell myself that is silly. Summer really, really wants to visit Legend again and makes no secret of it, every three weeks for several days!
And, yes, I am very concerned about Ginger getting pregnant again. She didn't the first time (should have kidded last August) and now this. She turned three yesterday. Her dad's companion buck is not registered though his owner has the paperwork to register him but had not done it last I talked to him. So far, my babies have gone to pet homes so papers would not matter and I would at least find out her milking potential, maybe, if I had her bred to him. If I do and she settles the first visit, then I'm going to think it is the buck - maybe she just doesn't like him! Out of four heat cycles with him (three on the same visit), only one settled - this one. I'll do what I can to get her weight down to eliminate that as a factor.
And, yes, it is soooo frustrating to get those results! I know it's better to know now than be watching for kids in two months that are not coming - but it still stinks.
I want to say I feel your pain. I have bucks here and still have two does that seemingly refuse to get pregnant. Both have kidded before, neither seem overweight (though one was a little chubby last year before her diet). I have free choice minerals and copper bolus. Previously I was using selenium gel before breeding, now I've switched to free choice selenium. The only thing I can figure is that I was mostly relying on buck-effect heat without knowing that the first heat following introduction to a buck is often not fertile.
I'm trying once again now. Normally I prefer to kid in spring, but I'm so frustrated with these two (one I really want a keeper doeling from) that I don't care if they kid on the hottest or coldest day of the year as long as they kid and everyone is healthy! I'm also afraid that the longer they go before kidding again the less likely they are to get pregnant, so I feel rushed.
I wish you luck! It's so frustrating to wait and hope and then get those "open" test results back...especially multiple times.
Unfortunately blood testing is not a great way to determine nutrient deficiencies, so you usually have to look for other symptoms. What you're experiencing sounds a lot like what we experienced back when we had copper deficiency issues. Was September the last time you gave the does COWP?
Do any stray cats every come through your yard? Just wondering about the possibility of toxoplasmosis, which also causes miscarriages. Dancer may have gotten pregnant but then miscarried also, but at an earlier stage of gestation than Ginger, which is why you didn't know it.
Minerals, sea kelp and baking soda are free choice. Copper bolus every four -five months. She had copper Sept. 28th before she went to visit in November so I would think that would have been fine. She was there for two months; I didn't ask but I am certain there were free choice minerals there as well - I cannot imagine the breeder not having minerals out for her bucks. Selenium I have not given to anyone. Water here is city water from a well a little over a mile from here where there has never been any industrial development of any kind anywhere near it. She had only grass hay at the breeders and grass hay here with half a cup of alfalfa pellets morning and evening, mostly to keep her happy because she sees Summer getting grain, etc., and I felt the calcium in the alfalfa pellets would be good for the baby development without there being enough to cause weight issues.
Now that I know that no one is pregnant, we are going on a strict regimen of a cup of alfalfa pellets among the three younger ones, now all of breeding age, two of which are overweight (Ginger at 80 lbs. and Dancer at 70 lbs.) and grass hay with no grain except BOSS as an occasional treat. Apples or carrots at bedtime. Does this sound okay?
Would a blood draw indicate mineral deficiency, and, of so, where would I send it?
I'm trying to be positive about this at this time. I have my second dental surgery next month so now won't be watching over kidding or kids during recovery.
An odd thing about Ginger is that her bag is still like it was when she kidded; it has not gone down as I would have thought. I am presuming that it is because it was not kidding increased but rather weight increased. ???
Better, it looks like she will be a milker more like her half-sister than her mother - better looking (as in a little bigger!) teats. I had hoped to find out in a couple of months so am disappointed in needing to wait longer as well as the obvious disappointment for both her and me.
I don't recall what exactly you do for minerals. Are you doing anything extra with copper or selenium?
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