New here

First of all, let me say how grateful I am for the information on this site. I have had Nigerians for a couple of years and actually had forgotten about this forum (sadly!). We have lost one buckling and have one more not doing well and it was during my research that I came across all of the information about copper deficiency here.

I have asmall flock and it's been such a trying few months that I am not sure I can see breeding again. I have other ruminant experience. I kept primitive sheep for years but without any problems. I had goats as a teen and don't recall having this many problems.

Anyway, I'm going to comb through this wonderful resource to see what else I can learn about what's going on with my goats. 

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  • Hi Diane - I missed that. Thanks for your reply. I also forgot to say we've been doing fecals all along. No worm load to worry about. They're largely on hay and I do FAMACHA to keep up on worming. He doesn't look anemic - and I shouldn't have used that term. My bad! The RBC were on the small side but it definitely isn't a major issue. I'm keeping a close eye on that too now though. The last thing he needs is to have a big wormload on top of all of this.

    Copper was marginal in the blood work (.587 ppm). Selenium was normal - thak goodness. At least we're successful with that! Serum copper should be .6 ppm -1.5 ppm. And that was after a big dose of copper so he must have been incredibly low.

    Thanks again for your reply as well. I'm much more hopeful today.

  • Thanks Deb. I'm quite sure it's copper- his serum blood copper is low and everything else (except iron) is fine. No CAE- phew.

    He's really ataxic morning and evening in the last couple of days. He's a bit more coordinated with his chewing though. My theory was that it had to be the copper because he was doing better and then started going downhill again and fast just a couple of days ago.

    He's had another dose of copper today and some yesterday so hopefully that will help. I think I'll dose him every few days until the copper boluses arrive.

    Thanks so much. Here's hoping it works.
  • Did you have the vet do fecals? Anemia tends to make me wonder about barberpole worms. The neurological symptoms wouldn't arise from that, but dosing with copper oxide wire particles can help prevent barberpole infestations. Sometimes neurological issues can be caused by meningeal worm. Are your goats out on pasture, and if they are, what is their grazing area like? 

  • I don't know anyone who has used human copper from the health food store. However, if you are using that, I'm sure you'd need to use it quite regularly. I personally take selenium every day. The copper oxide wire particles that most of us use will last at least a month because they take that long to dissolve in the rumen.

  • Hi Deborah,

    Thanks for that. I had no idea the SE was so short acting. What a bother! The vet (who is sadly very experienced with WMD) says it just doesn't look like that. Which is good, I suppose, though would be so easy to correct.

    I haven't heard back about the lab work - vet is going to call today with the results he has so far. I'll grab the Caprine Supply stuff because we are definitely deficient.

    He did tell me that the copper in the blood isn't reliable but if it is low, it would be that much more of an emergency. He's reminded me to keep this kid if things go really south for post-mortem. He'd like to send him to the Provincial Vet for autopsy (which I hope won't be needed).

    I did supplement with copepr from the health food store about a week ago. He rallied but it's hard to say if it's that, the extra grain, the Hemostam, or the A/D injection.

    As of ast night he's slower again, more hindleg placing problems, and definitely back to the vagal nerve/rumen issues.

    I got another half dose of copper into him this morning... Would it be that I need to just dose him weekly?

    Ugh - so frustrating to feel this helpless. I haven't lost animals in any number before and this is three in basically a month.

    Thanks for the welcome, advice, and support!

  • Welcome to the group! I understand where you're at because I've been there, and it is so frustrating.

    First off -- all selenium is not created equally. If you are giving injectable selenium, it is very short acting. Most of it is peed out in about 24 hours, so it is not a long-term solution in an area that is chronically selenium deficient. I have a free choice selenium available for my goats. It is available from Caprine Supply. I haven't seen it anywhere else. 

    Here is a blog post that I wrote on copper and selenium a couple years ago when I was at ADGA:

    http://www.homegrownandhandmadethebook.com/2011/10/copper-requireme...

    I wasn't clear on whether you were checking copper with a blood test, but if so, you won't get reliable results. The blood is actually the last place to lose copper, so a blood test may show sufficient copper, even if a goat is deficient. The only reliable copper test is to have a liver biopsied, which most people are not going to do with a live goat. Whenever a goat dies here, I have the liver biopsied, even if we just cut it out and send it in. This allows me to know how well my supplementation program is working -- or not. 

    Be sure to post results as they come in. 

  • Thanks Astrud.

    Sorry - forgot to say we live in a selenium deficient area. Moms all get SE in late pregnancy and everyone has been dosed. We have had huge amounts of WMD here but it's not likely for these guys.

    Of note though - I learned that because the E in the mineral mixes denatures easily, you can end up with WMD even if you're giving SE. We have given oral E as well now.

    Thanks again.

  • Welcome!  You may also want to consider selenium deficiency.  We also had similar problems this past spring with three does we had purchased from the same farm.  They all lost kids.  We even had a necropsy done on the first one that died, but they did not find anything wrong with the kid that would point to her death.  She died three days after being born.  She started having seizures and we even took her to the vet right away, but we were not able to do anything.  So that may be something you can also look at, especially if you are in a selenium deficient area.

  • Thanks Julia. 

    The main symptom was that the first buckling was having hind leg placing deficits. He had something rumen related as well - vagal nerve looking. He was slow, slow to grow, uncoordinated eating, though he could nurse. 

    He had obvious deficits from birth. He also had birth difficulties. He was the third of three. He was a slow starter after a rough birth. It was a touch and go 24hrs. In hindsight, I think the babies were early. 

    He died at just about four months of age after a few days of slowing right down which progressed to difficulty rising, foul smelling cud (fecal smelling), progressing to seizures and paralysis. He went downhill amazingly fast. 

    We worried about nervous CAE but they come from a closed, tested flock. So while it's possible... it's not the only place to look. We treated him for just about everything. Because he was the only one symptomatic (but not copper), the vet and I wondered if he was just one of those goats and that was that.

    Interestingly, I thought there were signs of copper deficiency based on the black doe in my flock who went reddish and started getting patchy which didn't stop until she had copper. My supposition was that because we're on well water that has iron signs, it was interfering with the uptake of copper. Also - the young wether who isn't doing well now is a brown buckskin but when I compare him with his mum or other wethers who used to look similar, his coat is lightening. His sister was always light but now is going a pinkish cream colour. To confuse things though, mum is dark and dad is very light - mostly white. So, it's also possible that this is a predictable lightening. 

    So, we have done blood work on this one. He is anemic and possibly low in D and calcium. We don't have the CAE results or mineral panel back yet. Of course, not thinking I would get into the vet first thing in the morning, I dosed him (and everyone) with copper so.... that might mess up that result.

    So, there's the long answer. I would love to hear more about what people think could be the problem. My vet - who is awesome - and I are stumped. He's loving the chance to do the detective work which is good because he's learning, I'm learning, and as much as it's awful, if it helps me or someone else down the road... that's something.

  • Welcome to the group! I'm so sorry you lost your buckling. It would be helpful if you would post the symptoms you are experiencing in your herd so that these very experienced goat lovers can help you figure out what's going on. Knowing what to do could very quickly turn your herd around and possibly save some lives and your sanity too! What kinds of symptoms are you seeing?

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