I wasn’t sure whether to put this in breeding or health - but here goes ...
first - I’m so excited hubby just surprised me with Raising Goats Naturally AND Just Kidding!! It’s hard to stop reading - but I have a question - that may be answered in the books but thought I’d ask now...
I have a doe that I had to pull kids on last March. After going through Denorah’s copper video course - I now suspect copper deficiency:(
I was too busy taking care of a weak legged kid, that I didn’t lavage her immediately afterwards. I did later that day- but not sure if cervix was Still open?
Because she had a whitish discharge about 3 weeks later I had the vet come out to see if she was infected. She said she didn’t think she was- but gave her a shot of biomycin anyway.
She has continued to have this discharge between heats with no other symptoms. Her discharge has never smelled bad like infection can. It sort of smells like a faint bleach/comet smell??
The vet didn’t think she smelled unusual either - but sadly I don’t have a vet around that knows goats!
I have been treating her with high doses of vite C plus Echinacea/Goldenseal garlic etc. I have flushed her with colloidal silver during heats when I think she’s open a few times.
She finally started drying up - then missed 2 heats. then today she had a lot of discharge and is her normal “ I’m in heat” self.
But the discharge is still not totally clear - maybe a tinge of pink. Still no smell.
At what point is it safe to put her with a buck? How do I know for sure any infection is gone - I doubt a vet around here would know - so I ask the experienced instead!:)
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That's great that you're going to do an ultrasound. That was going to be my next suggestion. I was chatting with a vet today, and she said she did a necropsy on a goat once that had a 4-year-old mummified fetus in her. She died from something unrelated. It is really interesting how sometimes the body goes septic and other times the body just deals with it.
New news! The vet stopped by on her day off to check Ginnie again - without me asking!
But- Ginnie saw her truck coming and we looked everywhere and couldn’t find her!
After the vet left she came out from around the house - her brain is functioning very well!:)
But we are going to do an ultra sound next week and see exactly what is in there. Then go from there...we’re not giving up:)!
This vet apparently has done many fetalectomys ( I think that’s the way it’s spelled?) on cows and goats. She sounded like hers were successful.
I don’t know why she gave her a slim chance of surviving a c-section. I just took her word for it- Ginnie is only 5 so not that old.
It IS amazing how the uterus can “wall” something off. The vet said she knows of at least one goat that lived for years with a dead kid!
I had also heard that a doe with a dead kid is usually gone pretty soon after- so I’m hoping that means it’s something else.
I am thinking all that vite C and immune herbs helped her to keep going.
Her recommendation was to give Banamine for the next 3 days - and she’s coming back on Fri. To do the next Excede shot and another vaginally check. She’s hoping the Banamine takes some swelling down.
That's fascinating! I have heard of that happening before, but I still find it so weird that their body can encapsulate a dead kid and just keep going fairly normally. On the other hand, some does become septic and die within a couple of days.
Why did she only give your doe a 50/50 chance of surviving a c-section? I've never heard of odds that grim -- or anywhere even close to that bad. We've had two c-sections, and it was not really a big deal.
Your doe's cervix has been closed for months, so nothing is coming out vaginally. Remember, they couldn't even get fluid to come out of my doe's uterus a month after kidding. However, since you mentioned that option, I personally would NEVER allow a vet to cut up a kid and remove it vaginally. Every case where I've heard of that being done, the doe died of a ruptured uterus, which doesn't really surprise me.
I'm changing planes in Chicago so don't have access to my references and I don't give out med dosages based on memory, regardless of how confident I feel about it. If I were this concerned about a goat I'd take her to a vet. I personally have to drive two hours to the vet school, so I know they are not always in everyone's neighborhood. But you really need to find a vet you trust. No one can do all of their own vet work. There are times when you need lab work done or a procedure that requires anesthesia, etc.
I've been at a conference this weekend with limited Internet access, but ultimately, unless I had a crystal ball, I couldn't answer any of your questions with any degree of accuracy. I'm curious what you mean about taking in a swab to the vet. That is usually something a vet would do, so you'd take the goat in. You don't just use a cotton swab from your medicine cabinet at home. You could be picking up all sorts of microscopic bugs of who know whats.
Perception varies so much from one person to another. When I was new to goats, I thought goats were pushing in labor when they were still two days away from kidding, and I've had people on this forum have that same perception. If your goat is acting pretty normal most of the time, she's probably fine, and you're misreading cues. Goats lay on their side, and they chew their cud. It's just impossible to know what's happening without being there.
Don't jump to any conclusions. And I would definitely not use lutalyse. If she is pregnant, that would cause her to abort.
I'm writing this at 3:30am - so worried can't sleep:( I put the doe in with my buck- all went fine. 2 days later she's discharging again - this time I'm finding crusty clear reddish stuff in her behind. Still not a really bad smell- no fever... But not eating as much grain though she does go out and graze and acts pretty normal most of the time.
But I have also caught her laying on her side, sort of pushing - sometimes grinding teeth.
I know it's impossible to give a diagnosis without being around her:)
I found a vet that will actually do a test on a swab - so we'll take that in Monday.
Now I'm worried about my sweet blue eyed red chamoise homegrown buck! If she has an infection after all - will he automatically get it too?
I don't like jumping to antibiotics unless needed. I went back to dosing her with high vita C and the buck also.
If she is infected, I wouldn't think an egg would be able to survive and grow would it?
I hear people on other forums using something called lutelyse (?) or oxytocin (?) like it was nothing - but I would prefer not to go that route.
If she is infected - do I have to treat her and my buck with antibiotics? I hope there is another way:(
I hate concrete suggestions like do a vaginal check after 30 minutes of pushing. There's pushing and then there's PUSHING! I don't get too excited about wimpy pushing. You said your doe wasn't pushing, and the kids were high, so once her uterus pushed the kids lower in the pelvis, she would have started pushing seriously. The first 3-4 years we had goats, there were so many does that I thought were in labor -- sometimes days before they actually kidded, so no way were they actually in labor. Here's a Facebook Live I did this past spring. This doe went an hour between the first and second kid, but she wasn't pushing very hard, so I knew the kid was still high in the pelvis and wasn't too worried. (I'm always a little worried but am better at sitting on my hands now than I used to be.) One of the very long videos is very boring because she doesn't actually have the kid, and I finally decided to turn off the video because I was afraid my battery would die before she was done.
Hopefully it will do the whole playlist that I put together of the videos for the whole birth.
It is puzzling why the other doe wanted to eat a hay that she normally doesn't want to eat. I'm getting ready to head to the Mother Earth News Fair in Kansas tomorrow, so I don't have time to look that up right now.
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That's great that you're going to do an ultrasound. That was going to be my next suggestion. I was chatting with a vet today, and she said she did a necropsy on a goat once that had a 4-year-old mummified fetus in her. She died from something unrelated. It is really interesting how sometimes the body goes septic and other times the body just deals with it.
But- Ginnie saw her truck coming and we looked everywhere and couldn’t find her!
After the vet left she came out from around the house - her brain is functioning very well!:)
But we are going to do an ultra sound next week and see exactly what is in there. Then go from there...we’re not giving up:)!
This vet apparently has done many fetalectomys ( I think that’s the way it’s spelled?) on cows and goats. She sounded like hers were successful.
I don’t know why she gave her a slim chance of surviving a c-section. I just took her word for it- Ginnie is only 5 so not that old.
It IS amazing how the uterus can “wall” something off. The vet said she knows of at least one goat that lived for years with a dead kid!
I had also heard that a doe with a dead kid is usually gone pretty soon after- so I’m hoping that means it’s something else.
I am thinking all that vite C and immune herbs helped her to keep going.
Her recommendation was to give Banamine for the next 3 days - and she’s coming back on Fri. To do the next Excede shot and another vaginally check. She’s hoping the Banamine takes some swelling down.
I’ll update soon and hopefully have more answers
Thank You!
That's fascinating! I have heard of that happening before, but I still find it so weird that their body can encapsulate a dead kid and just keep going fairly normally. On the other hand, some does become septic and die within a couple of days.
Why did she only give your doe a 50/50 chance of surviving a c-section? I've never heard of odds that grim -- or anywhere even close to that bad. We've had two c-sections, and it was not really a big deal.
Your doe's cervix has been closed for months, so nothing is coming out vaginally. Remember, they couldn't even get fluid to come out of my doe's uterus a month after kidding. However, since you mentioned that option, I personally would NEVER allow a vet to cut up a kid and remove it vaginally. Every case where I've heard of that being done, the doe died of a ruptured uterus, which doesn't really surprise me.
But not good news about my doe...
She did a one finger vaginal exam and felt something sharp just inside the cervix.
I felt it too and we both agreed it was probably a kid from last kidding:(
That explains a lot of things - especially the slow labor.
So her recommendation was to either do a c-section which she would have a 50/50 chance of making it through - or putting her down.
I think this vet is very good and being honest - but I wanted to check First to see if there were any other options.
I have heard of dead kids being cut and removed vaginally - but that’s probably only during kidding?
She has been such a trooper and has such a will to live. But I can’t imagjne how painful/uncomfortable that has been for her for 7 months!
Any help - this is such a hard decision.
If she is pregnant - it’s only been a week - so it seems laying on her side and pushing isn’t normal:(
I’ve also seen her grind her teeth...
Plus I read that if she was infected - then conception would be impossible??
She still has no fever - no more discharge and is off feed except for hay and grazing.
I guess I didn’t find such a smart vet after all! That’s just what his instructions were- swab the vulva- put in plastic bag- bring it in!
I’m trying to avoid taking her in. She doesn’t travel well and is afraid of everything. But the mobile vets are expensive and don’t know goats.:(
We made the decision to start her on Pen G and start treating it like an infection. I read that uterine infections can be happening without a fever.
Good choice if it is?
I detest giving shots - something we haven’t done for a couple years!
Plus- when researching Pen G we came up with such varying instructions!
Always SQ or always IM - 1ml per 100lbs to 1 ml to 10lbs!
So if you’d like to throw in your view - it is welcome!!
This is so heartbreaking, she is our prize doe plus sweet and gentle. I don’t want to loose her :(
I've been at a conference this weekend with limited Internet access, but ultimately, unless I had a crystal ball, I couldn't answer any of your questions with any degree of accuracy. I'm curious what you mean about taking in a swab to the vet. That is usually something a vet would do, so you'd take the goat in. You don't just use a cotton swab from your medicine cabinet at home. You could be picking up all sorts of microscopic bugs of who know whats.
Perception varies so much from one person to another. When I was new to goats, I thought goats were pushing in labor when they were still two days away from kidding, and I've had people on this forum have that same perception. If your goat is acting pretty normal most of the time, she's probably fine, and you're misreading cues. Goats lay on their side, and they chew their cud. It's just impossible to know what's happening without being there.
Don't jump to any conclusions. And I would definitely not use lutalyse. If she is pregnant, that would cause her to abort.
But I have also caught her laying on her side, sort of pushing - sometimes grinding teeth.
I know it's impossible to give a diagnosis without being around her:)
I found a vet that will actually do a test on a swab - so we'll take that in Monday.
Now I'm worried about my sweet blue eyed red chamoise homegrown buck! If she has an infection after all - will he automatically get it too?
I don't like jumping to antibiotics unless needed. I went back to dosing her with high vita C and the buck also.
If she is infected, I wouldn't think an egg would be able to survive and grow would it?
I hear people on other forums using something called lutelyse (?) or oxytocin (?) like it was nothing - but I would prefer not to go that route.
If she is infected - do I have to treat her and my buck with antibiotics? I hope there is another way:(
I hate concrete suggestions like do a vaginal check after 30 minutes of pushing. There's pushing and then there's PUSHING! I don't get too excited about wimpy pushing. You said your doe wasn't pushing, and the kids were high, so once her uterus pushed the kids lower in the pelvis, she would have started pushing seriously. The first 3-4 years we had goats, there were so many does that I thought were in labor -- sometimes days before they actually kidded, so no way were they actually in labor. Here's a Facebook Live I did this past spring. This doe went an hour between the first and second kid, but she wasn't pushing very hard, so I knew the kid was still high in the pelvis and wasn't too worried. (I'm always a little worried but am better at sitting on my hands now than I used to be.) One of the very long videos is very boring because she doesn't actually have the kid, and I finally decided to turn off the video because I was afraid my battery would die before she was done.
https://www.facebook.com/ThriftyHomesteader/videos/1115458045250475/
Hopefully it will do the whole playlist that I put together of the videos for the whole birth.
It is puzzling why the other doe wanted to eat a hay that she normally doesn't want to eat. I'm getting ready to head to the Mother Earth News Fair in Kansas tomorrow, so I don't have time to look that up right now.