Dewormers

Hey, Right now I am just rotating between Safeguard and Ivermection. So I was wondering if anyone knew of another type of oral dewormer for goats. I have heard people using different types of horse dewormer, but I'm not sure on the dosage. I also have pellet formed dewormer, but it is WAAAY to hard to figure out the dosage because it tells you how much per 100 pounds. Well I have a 50, 55, 60, and 61 pound goat, so that is really not going to help much. If anyone has a suggustion, please let me know. WG4

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Replies

  • Deborah,

    Thanks! I just wanted to check that all the rest of my information was correct, since I was wrong on rotation! I don't usually deworm on a schedule. I make sure they really need it first.

    I'll write that information on Cydentin for future reference, if I ever need, which I hope I don't!

    Thanks so much!
    WG4

    Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
    Unless your goats are chronically anemic and losing weight, they're probably fine. Your pasture rotation sounds good. If Safeguard isn't working for haemonchus contortus, that's not a big deal, as long as the ivermectin is working. Just use that. I only use Safeguard now if I know a goat has tapes. Otherwise, I don't bother, because I know it's not going to do much for HC. If your goats have tapeworms, you can see them in their poop. They look like rice.

    Doing your own fecals is a little complicated to explain in an email. There are several websites where they talk about how to do it. You need a solution (most are either saline or sugar) to float the poop, which has been smashed up and filtered. You put the glass slide on top of the flotation liquid, and the eggs float to the top within about 15 minutes, and then you can look at them under a microscope. It's much easier if you can see someone do it the first time. You could have a vet do it for you, but ask what they charge first, and shop around if necessary.

    There are a lot of things that will affect how long it takes for parasites to build up resistance to a dewormer on your farm, but basically, the more you use it, the faster resistance will happen. That's why the new recommendation is to NOT deworm on a schedule; only use dewormers when absolutely necessary.

    You can get Cydectin sheep drench through the livestock catalogs, but I want to stress that you should NOT use it unless you know that nothing else is working.

    Deborah

    WorkingGoats4 said:
    Deborah,

    Okay. So, I am guessing my goats have a resistance to Safeguard - maybe. How do I do a fecal samples? I know you told me once, but I can't remember now. Do I just look at the fecal under a microscope? Because we have a microscope.

    Where do you get Cydection?

    How does it take to build up a resistance?

    I am now thinking my parasite control program isn't working. I mean, I rotate pasture every day (move thier pen that is) and then don't put them back in that spot for another 6 weeks. Is that right? I also check eyelids every month and deworm when nessacary. Am I doing it right?

    The only thing is I switch every once and a while from safeguard to Ivenmectin and vice versa.

    You've kind of got be scared now. I only have the four, I don't want to loose one.

    WG4
  • Unless your goats are chronically anemic and losing weight, they're probably fine. Your pasture rotation sounds good. If Safeguard isn't working for haemonchus contortus, that's not a big deal, as long as the ivermectin is working. Just use that. I only use Safeguard now if I know a goat has tapes. Otherwise, I don't bother, because I know it's not going to do much for HC. If your goats have tapeworms, you can see them in their poop. They look like rice.

    Doing your own fecals is a little complicated to explain in an email. There are several websites where they talk about how to do it. You need a solution (most are either saline or sugar) to float the poop, which has been smashed up and filtered. You put the glass slide on top of the flotation liquid, and the eggs float to the top within about 15 minutes, and then you can look at them under a microscope. It's much easier if you can see someone do it the first time. You could have a vet do it for you, but ask what they charge first, and shop around if necessary.

    There are a lot of things that will affect how long it takes for parasites to build up resistance to a dewormer on your farm, but basically, the more you use it, the faster resistance will happen. That's why the new recommendation is to NOT deworm on a schedule; only use dewormers when absolutely necessary.

    You can get Cydectin sheep drench through the livestock catalogs, but I want to stress that you should NOT use it unless you know that nothing else is working.

    Deborah

    WorkingGoats4 said:
    Deborah,

    Okay. So, I am guessing my goats have a resistance to Safeguard - maybe. How do I do a fecal samples? I know you told me once, but I can't remember now. Do I just look at the fecal under a microscope? Because we have a microscope.

    Where do you get Cydection?

    How does it take to build up a resistance?

    I am now thinking my parasite control program isn't working. I mean, I rotate pasture every day (move thier pen that is) and then don't put them back in that spot for another 6 weeks. Is that right? I also check eyelids every month and deworm when nessacary. Am I doing it right?

    The only thing is I switch every once and a while from safeguard to Ivenmectin and vice versa.

    You've kind of got be scared now. I only have the four, I don't want to loose one.

    WG4
  • Deborah,

    Okay. So, I am guessing my goats have a resistance to Safeguard - maybe. How do I do a fecal samples? I know you told me once, but I can't remember now. Do I just look at the fecal under a microscope? Because we have a microscope.

    Where do you get Cydection?

    How does it take to build up a resistance?

    I am now thinking my parasite control program isn't working. I mean, I rotate pasture every day (move thier pen that is) and then don't put them back in that spot for another 6 weeks. Is that right? I also check eyelids every month and deworm when nessacary. Am I doing it right?

    The only thing is I switch every once and a while from safeguard to Ivenmectin and vice versa.

    You've kind of got be scared now. I only have the four, I don't want to loose one.

    WG4
    Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
    Horse vets tell you to rotate, and some don't realize goats are different. I've never seen an explanation for why goats and sheep have more trouble with resistant parasites, but there is plenty of info out there that makes it very clear that they do have a much worse problem than horses, cows, and other livestock. When I attended the FAMACHA training in February, they said there are producers in the southeast US that lose up to 20% of their stock every year to parasite resistance.

    You know the parasites on your farm are resistant to a dewormer when it doesn't kill at least 80-90% of the parasites. The only way to know this for sure is to do fecal samples before and after using the dewormer. In reality, most people realize they have a resistance problem when goats die from parasites in spite of deworming.

    There are only three classes of dewormers -- the clear ones (Ivermectin, Cydectin, etc), the white ones (Safeguard, Valbazen, etc), and the solid ones (morantel tartrate, levasole, etc). Only two drugs (Safeguard and morantel tartrate) are labeled for use in goats. With everything else, you're using it "off label," which means that no one has really looked at research to figure out what the correct dosage is for goats, or if it's even safe. There is a sheep version of most of these; however, goats have different metabolism, and they seem to need more than sheep. In most cases, you give at least twice as much to goats as you would to sheep. When I first got started, Safeguard was not even labeled for goats, so we used the horse version and dosed at 3-4 times the horse dosage. I wouldn't do this with other drugs though, because some are easier to overdose than others. I know someone who had several sheep die from a dose of Panacur that her vet said was safe, so it's very tricky when you use something off-label.

    As for me, I have used all of the above and religiously rotated dewormers like I thought I was supposed to -- and within about 6 years, we had a resistance problem. Now, I use the FAMACHA and "Smart Drenching" protocol from wormcontrol.org, as well as pasture rotation where I can. I'm also trying a variety of natural remedies.

    WorkingGoats4 said:
    Deborah,

    Oh. I guess I had that wrong. I thought I was suppose to rotate. I must of gotten my information wrong then. How do you know if the parasites have a resistance?

    What do you use?

    I have heard that there are 7 different types of dewormer, but only a few dosed for goats. We use four different types of dewormers for our horses, based on the season. Can any of those be dosed for goats? My Ivermection is for horses - I think. It's from my vet who said he has horse ivermectin, sheep, and swine. And this stuff is apple flavored, so I figure it's horse.

    Thanks!
    WG4

  • Horse vets tell you to rotate, and some don't realize goats are different. I've never seen an explanation for why goats and sheep have more trouble with resistant parasites, but there is plenty of info out there that makes it very clear that they do have a much worse problem than horses, cows, and other livestock. When I attended the FAMACHA training in February, they said there are producers in the southeast US that lose up to 20% of their stock every year to parasite resistance.

    You know the parasites on your farm are resistant to a dewormer when it doesn't kill at least 80-90% of the parasites. The only way to know this for sure is to do fecal samples before and after using the dewormer. In reality, most people realize they have a resistance problem when goats die from parasites in spite of deworming.

    There are only three classes of dewormers -- the clear ones (Ivermectin, Cydectin, etc), the white ones (Safeguard, Valbazen, etc), and the solid ones (morantel tartrate, levasole, etc). Only two drugs (Safeguard and morantel tartrate) are labeled for use in goats. With everything else, you're using it "off label," which means that no one has really looked at research to figure out what the correct dosage is for goats, or if it's even safe. There is a sheep version of most of these; however, goats have different metabolism, and they seem to need more than sheep. In most cases, you give at least twice as much to goats as you would to sheep. When I first got started, Safeguard was not even labeled for goats, so we used the horse version and dosed at 3-4 times the horse dosage. I wouldn't do this with other drugs though, because some are easier to overdose than others. I know someone who had several sheep die from a dose of Panacur that her vet said was safe, so it's very tricky when you use something off-label.

    As for me, I have used all of the above and religiously rotated dewormers like I thought I was supposed to -- and within about 6 years, we had a resistance problem. Now, I use the FAMACHA and "Smart Drenching" protocol from wormcontrol.org, as well as pasture rotation where I can. I'm also trying a variety of natural remedies.

    WorkingGoats4 said:
    Deborah,

    Oh. I guess I had that wrong. I thought I was suppose to rotate. I must of gotten my information wrong then. How do you know if the parasites have a resistance?

    What do you use?

    I have heard that there are 7 different types of dewormer, but only a few dosed for goats. We use four different types of dewormers for our horses, based on the season. Can any of those be dosed for goats? My Ivermection is for horses - I think. It's from my vet who said he has horse ivermectin, sheep, and swine. And this stuff is apple flavored, so I figure it's horse.

    Thanks!
    WG4

  • Deborah,

    Oh. I guess I had that wrong. I thought I was suppose to rotate. I must of gotten my information wrong then. How do you know if the parasites have a resistance?

    What do you use?

    I have heard that there are 7 different types of dewormer, but only a few dosed for goats. We use four different types of dewormers for our horses, based on the season. Can any of those be dosed for goats? My Ivermection is for horses - I think. It's from my vet who said he has horse ivermectin, sheep, and swine. And this stuff is apple flavored, so I figure it's horse.

    Thanks!
    WG4

    Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
    I'm pretty sure you know that the latest research no longer recommends rotating dewormers with goats and sheep, because of the problems with parasite resistance. So, as long as the Ivermectin is working, you should keep using it. It's probably the best one for haemonchus contortus, which is the most common stomach worm. Once it stops working, your only choice really is Cydectin, which is heavy duty and should be avoided as long as possible. Once you get a resistance to Cydectin, you have to start triple-dosing with all three classes of dewormer at once.

    For tapeworms, however, you need a white dewormer like Safeguard. The only thing I don't like about Safeguard is that you have to give it for three days for tapeworms; Valbazen is one-dose, BUT you can't use it in pregnant does, because it causes birth defects. Luckily, kids are usually the ones who get tapes -- at least in my herd. I almost never see tapes in my adults.

    There are herbal and natural dewormers that are being researched by professionals. I'm also doing a little research on my own, putting goats into different treatment groups and trying different things to see if I can find some good natural solutions.
  • I'm pretty sure you know that the latest research no longer recommends rotating dewormers with goats and sheep, because of the problems with parasite resistance. So, as long as the Ivermectin is working, you should keep using it. It's probably the best one for haemonchus contortus, which is the most common stomach worm. Once it stops working, your only choice really is Cydectin, which is heavy duty and should be avoided as long as possible. Once you get a resistance to Cydectin, you have to start triple-dosing with all three classes of dewormer at once.

    For tapeworms, however, you need a white dewormer like Safeguard. The only thing I don't like about Safeguard is that you have to give it for three days for tapeworms; Valbazen is one-dose, BUT you can't use it in pregnant does, because it causes birth defects. Luckily, kids are usually the ones who get tapes -- at least in my herd. I almost never see tapes in my adults.

    There are herbal and natural dewormers that are being researched by professionals. I'm also doing a little research on my own, putting goats into different treatment groups and trying different things to see if I can find some good natural solutions.
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