So, I thought I KNEW without a doubt that we wanted to get ND next year, but after talking to another farmer who has mini-Nubians, I don't know. So, not trying to stir up anything, but can some of you tell me why you choose one over the other, or if you didn't consciously make that choice, what is it about ND that you feel makes them superior?
BTW, I'm learning SO MUCH reading this forum. Way more than the yahoo groups. Thanks!
Meg
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Let me first say that WI is one of the most militantly anti-small milk farm places you'll ever find. In WI it is illegal to sell ANY raw milk product, period. If you were to sell cheese it'd be costly and would have to be pasturized.
Where are you looking to get your Nigies from? WI has very few good ND breeders that I've found. By good I mean those that test their herd, and breed carefully for dairy features VS just breeding for more goats. It was a struggle for me when I set out to get my own NDs.
Laura (I think it was?) is totally correct as well, the Nubians, mini or otherwise are very loud, very complainy goats. That is why I won't own them, I'm not a fan of screaming goats LOL. I have 2 friends with Nubians and while the goats are friendly they are super loud, way more stubborn than most goats, and when they want to be pushy they are insistent and not easily dissuaded.
Ok, that by itself would be enough to convince me. I don't want loud goats! I also have a boarding kennel and the dogs can raise a rukus sometimes, but even though we're on 20 acres, we have one neighbor who swears he can hear them very clearly, even when they are all inside. I can't imagine what he'd say if I had loud goats. lol Thanks Laura!
Laura Jo said:
Deborah, what are you writing a book on?
I chose ND's for a lot of reasons, quieter, gentle, small enough that I can easily handle, hardy for our tough Alaskan winters, breed all year round, high butterfat content, best feed to milk ratio, and they are the perfect size for our meat needs also. I could probably go on and on.
I don't know how mini-nubians are but I have read that nubians are LOUD goats, which I don't like at all.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Just doing some research for my book and found the ADGA page with milk averages:
Also found an old Spanish proverb that says, "Cheese from the ewe, milk from the goat, butter from the cow."
Ewe milk is used almost exclusively for cheese because of the high milk solids. The NDs really give them a run for their money though. Although sheep have slightly higher protein, NDs beat them on butterfat. And if you look at that ADGA page, you can see that NDs beat all the standard goats in butterfat and protein percentage by a pretty wide margin -- sometimes 50% higher in protein and 100% higher in butterfat!
It's called "Homegrown and Handmade," and is coming out next fall published by New Society Publishers. It is about how to grow your own food -- vegetables, fruits, herbs, eggs, poultry, dairy, and also fiber (which you can't eat, but you can eat fiber animals).
Laura Jo said:
Deborah, what are you writing a book on?
I chose ND's for a lot of reasons, quieter, gentle, small enough that I can easily handle, hardy for our tough Alaskan winters, breed all year round, high butterfat content, best feed to milk ratio, and they are the perfect size for our meat needs also. I could probably go on and on.
I don't know how mini-nubians are but I have read that nubians are LOUD goats, which I don't like at all.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Just doing some research for my book and found the ADGA page with milk averages:
Also found an old Spanish proverb that says, "Cheese from the ewe, milk from the goat, butter from the cow."
Ewe milk is used almost exclusively for cheese because of the high milk solids. The NDs really give them a run for their money though. Although sheep have slightly higher protein, NDs beat them on butterfat. And if you look at that ADGA page, you can see that NDs beat all the standard goats in butterfat and protein percentage by a pretty wide margin -- sometimes 50% higher in protein and 100% higher in butterfat!
Also found an old Spanish proverb that says, "Cheese from the ewe, milk from the goat, butter from the cow."
Ewe milk is used almost exclusively for cheese because of the high milk solids. The NDs really give them a run for their money though. Although sheep have slightly higher protein, NDs beat them on butterfat. And if you look at that ADGA page, you can see that NDs beat all the standard goats in butterfat and protein percentage by a pretty wide margin -- sometimes 50% higher in protein and 100% higher in butterfat!
We decided on ND for size. We don't have a truck and we can easily fit two goats in the back of the car when we have to. We drink about 2 gallons of milk a week and we want to make our own dairy products as well. We figured the right goats in the two-three goat herd we hope to maintain would give us enough milk to do all that for the better part of the year. This is in theory of course, our first kidding is only a few weeks away.
The commercial dairy situation in IL is not any better. I'd be looking at six figures, because I'd have to have a certified dairy and a certified kitchen. After doing the math, I realized it didn't make sense to make and sell a couple different kinds of cheese and then have to continue to buy other types of dairy products, so I've learned to make all the dairy products we use. I actually just made a list yesterday of everything we make, and it adds up to 17 different dairy products -- everything from popular cheeses (cheddar, mozz, ricotta, etc), yogurt, and buttermilk to stuff I never even heard of before I started learning all of this, such as gjetost and cajeta and St. Maure.
Meg Wittenmyer said:
That is good to know and just the kind of information I was looking for. Do you sell your cheese commercially or use it just for your family? In Wisconsin, it's apparently almost impossible unless you're independently wealthy, to start a dairy business of any kind because...well, it's Wisconsin. :)
That is good to know and just the kind of information I was looking for. Do you sell your cheese commercially or use it just for your family? In Wisconsin, it's apparently almost impossible unless you're independently wealthy, to start a dairy business of any kind because...well, it's Wisconsin. :)
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
And I just had another thought this morning. The numbers I gave are the textbook averages, but when outcrossing (as with minis) there is a lot more variation between the top and bottom numbers, as they can take more traits from one side or the other -- like the mini mancha I had that gave less milk than my NDs. That's why when making my own mini manchas, I'm using animals from top producers with both breeds. If I were to buy a second or third generation mini mancha from someone, I would want them to be on milk test so I could see what kind of butterfat they give. My goat with the most butterfat (Scandal) is actually a mediocre producer. If it weren't for milk testing, she would have been gone years ago. But in six months this year, she produced as many pounds of butterfat as my top milkers produced in eight months, which is really cool for a cheesemaker.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
There are two things that will determine personality -- genetics and environment. I know there are some skittish NDs out there, because I bought a few of them my first couple years. BUT I didn't keep them, because they were worthless as milkers. Anyone who has been milking their herd for a few years should have decent genetics for personality, so the only part of the equation is environment. If you handle them, they're friendly. If you don't handle them, they're wild. They do still all have their individual personalities, but no one gives me any trouble on the milk stand.
A"mini" is made by crossing an ND buck and a standard doe. It will be several inches taller than a Nigerian but not as big as a standard goat. A Nigerian dwarf is a distinct breed that's been recognized for about 20 years now. It's tough to find a mini that's more than two or three generations away from an ND and standard cross.
If you want high butterfat, a mini can't touch what Nigerians produce. Standard goats have butterfat around 3 to 5%, depending upon breed. Minis have 4 to 6%, and NDs have 5 to 7% through most of their lactation, and many of them hit 9-10% towards the end.
Meg Wittenmyer said:
Well, Deborah, what you're doing is exactly what I want to do. We don't drink that much milk, but I want to make cheese, yogurt and other by-products of the milk and I want a high butterfat.
I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a 'dwarf' and a 'mini'. I mean they're both smaller sizes of the original, right? I really appreciate the knowledge here. I think I just need to go look at both. Because a neighbor (an hour away) says that her mini Nubians are much more friendly than ND and that's not the picture I have gotten of them at all from reading the forums.
And I just had another thought this morning. The numbers I gave are the textbook averages, but when outcrossing (as with minis) there is a lot more variation between the top and bottom numbers, as they can take more traits from one side or the other -- like the mini mancha I had that gave less milk than my NDs. That's why when making my own mini manchas, I'm using animals from top producers with both breeds. If I were to buy a second or third generation mini mancha from someone, I would want them to be on milk test so I could see what kind of butterfat they give. My goat with the most butterfat (Scandal) is actually a mediocre producer. If it weren't for milk testing, she would have been gone years ago. But in six months this year, she produced as many pounds of butterfat as my top milkers produced in eight months, which is really cool for a cheesemaker.
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
There are two things that will determine personality -- genetics and environment. I know there are some skittish NDs out there, because I bought a few of them my first couple years. BUT I didn't keep them, because they were worthless as milkers. Anyone who has been milking their herd for a few years should have decent genetics for personality, so the only part of the equation is environment. If you handle them, they're friendly. If you don't handle them, they're wild. They do still all have their individual personalities, but no one gives me any trouble on the milk stand.
A"mini" is made by crossing an ND buck and a standard doe. It will be several inches taller than a Nigerian but not as big as a standard goat. A Nigerian dwarf is a distinct breed that's been recognized for about 20 years now. It's tough to find a mini that's more than two or three generations away from an ND and standard cross.
If you want high butterfat, a mini can't touch what Nigerians produce. Standard goats have butterfat around 3 to 5%, depending upon breed. Minis have 4 to 6%, and NDs have 5 to 7% through most of their lactation, and many of them hit 9-10% towards the end.
Meg Wittenmyer said:
Well, Deborah, what you're doing is exactly what I want to do. We don't drink that much milk, but I want to make cheese, yogurt and other by-products of the milk and I want a high butterfat.
I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a 'dwarf' and a 'mini'. I mean they're both smaller sizes of the original, right? I really appreciate the knowledge here. I think I just need to go look at both. Because a neighbor (an hour away) says that her mini Nubians are much more friendly than ND and that's not the picture I have gotten of them at all from reading the forums.
There are two things that will determine personality -- genetics and environment. I know there are some skittish NDs out there, because I bought a few of them my first couple years. BUT I didn't keep them, because they were worthless as milkers. Anyone who has been milking their herd for a few years should have decent genetics for personality, so the only part of the equation is environment. If you handle them, they're friendly. If you don't handle them, they're wild. They do still all have their individual personalities, but no one gives me any trouble on the milk stand.
A"mini" is made by crossing an ND buck and a standard doe. It will be several inches taller than a Nigerian but not as big as a standard goat. A Nigerian dwarf is a distinct breed that's been recognized for about 20 years now. It's tough to find a mini that's more than two or three generations away from an ND and standard cross.
If you want high butterfat, a mini can't touch what Nigerians produce. Standard goats have butterfat around 3 to 5%, depending upon breed. Minis have 4 to 6%, and NDs have 5 to 7% through most of their lactation, and many of them hit 9-10% towards the end.
Meg Wittenmyer said:
Well, Deborah, what you're doing is exactly what I want to do. We don't drink that much milk, but I want to make cheese, yogurt and other by-products of the milk and I want a high butterfat.
I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a 'dwarf' and a 'mini'. I mean they're both smaller sizes of the original, right? I really appreciate the knowledge here. I think I just need to go look at both. Because a neighbor (an hour away) says that her mini Nubians are much more friendly than ND and that's not the picture I have gotten of them at all from reading the forums.
Meg
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
I'm pretty much giving up on the mini manchas, because the ears are the only thing that attracts me to them. I like having a small goat with high butterfat because we make tons of cheese -- the goats provide all of our dairy needs. I think you really need to look at your goals when choosing a breed. Someone called me once and said they go through two gallons of milk a day, and I told them to get a couple of saanens, because you could get that much from one or two saanens, but you'd be milking a dozen NDs to get that much milk. On the other hand, we don't drink milk at all. We just use it to make cheese, yogurt, buttermilk, etc. so we'd have gallons of whey to dispose of (which we feed to pigs) if we had saanens because their butterfat is quite low, so the cheese yield is half of what it is with ND milk. We'd need four gallons of saanen milk to make the same amount of cheese that we can make with two gallons of ND milk, so it really makes sense for us to have NDs.
Well, Deborah, what you're doing is exactly what I want to do. We don't drink that much milk, but I want to make cheese, yogurt and other by-products of the milk and I want a high butterfat.
I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a 'dwarf' and a 'mini'. I mean they're both smaller sizes of the original, right? I really appreciate the knowledge here. I think I just need to go look at both. Because a neighbor (an hour away) says that her mini Nubians are much more friendly than ND and that's not the picture I have gotten of them at all from reading the forums.
Meg
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
I'm pretty much giving up on the mini manchas, because the ears are the only thing that attracts me to them. I like having a small goat with high butterfat because we make tons of cheese -- the goats provide all of our dairy needs. I think you really need to look at your goals when choosing a breed. Someone called me once and said they go through two gallons of milk a day, and I told them to get a couple of saanens, because you could get that much from one or two saanens, but you'd be milking a dozen NDs to get that much milk. On the other hand, we don't drink milk at all. We just use it to make cheese, yogurt, buttermilk, etc. so we'd have gallons of whey to dispose of (which we feed to pigs) if we had saanens because their butterfat is quite low, so the cheese yield is half of what it is with ND milk. We'd need four gallons of saanen milk to make the same amount of cheese that we can make with two gallons of ND milk, so it really makes sense for us to have NDs.
Replies
Meg, I'm in WI as well.
Let me first say that WI is one of the most militantly anti-small milk farm places you'll ever find. In WI it is illegal to sell ANY raw milk product, period. If you were to sell cheese it'd be costly and would have to be pasturized.
Where are you looking to get your Nigies from? WI has very few good ND breeders that I've found. By good I mean those that test their herd, and breed carefully for dairy features VS just breeding for more goats. It was a struggle for me when I set out to get my own NDs.
Laura (I think it was?) is totally correct as well, the Nubians, mini or otherwise are very loud, very complainy goats. That is why I won't own them, I'm not a fan of screaming goats LOL. I have 2 friends with Nubians and while the goats are friendly they are super loud, way more stubborn than most goats, and when they want to be pushy they are insistent and not easily dissuaded.
Ok, that by itself would be enough to convince me. I don't want loud goats! I also have a boarding kennel and the dogs can raise a rukus sometimes, but even though we're on 20 acres, we have one neighbor who swears he can hear them very clearly, even when they are all inside. I can't imagine what he'd say if I had loud goats. lol Thanks Laura!
Laura Jo said:
It's called "Homegrown and Handmade," and is coming out next fall published by New Society Publishers. It is about how to grow your own food -- vegetables, fruits, herbs, eggs, poultry, dairy, and also fiber (which you can't eat, but you can eat fiber animals).
Laura Jo said:
Just doing some research for my book and found the ADGA page with milk averages:
http://adga.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i...
Also found an old Spanish proverb that says, "Cheese from the ewe, milk from the goat, butter from the cow."
Ewe milk is used almost exclusively for cheese because of the high milk solids. The NDs really give them a run for their money though. Although sheep have slightly higher protein, NDs beat them on butterfat. And if you look at that ADGA page, you can see that NDs beat all the standard goats in butterfat and protein percentage by a pretty wide margin -- sometimes 50% higher in protein and 100% higher in butterfat!
Meg Wittenmyer said:
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
There are two things that will determine personality -- genetics and environment. I know there are some skittish NDs out there, because I bought a few of them my first couple years. BUT I didn't keep them, because they were worthless as milkers. Anyone who has been milking their herd for a few years should have decent genetics for personality, so the only part of the equation is environment. If you handle them, they're friendly. If you don't handle them, they're wild. They do still all have their individual personalities, but no one gives me any trouble on the milk stand.
A"mini" is made by crossing an ND buck and a standard doe. It will be several inches taller than a Nigerian but not as big as a standard goat. A Nigerian dwarf is a distinct breed that's been recognized for about 20 years now. It's tough to find a mini that's more than two or three generations away from an ND and standard cross.
If you want high butterfat, a mini can't touch what Nigerians produce. Standard goats have butterfat around 3 to 5%, depending upon breed. Minis have 4 to 6%, and NDs have 5 to 7% through most of their lactation, and many of them hit 9-10% towards the end.
Meg Wittenmyer said:
Well, Deborah, what you're doing is exactly what I want to do. We don't drink that much milk, but I want to make cheese, yogurt and other by-products of the milk and I want a high butterfat.
I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a 'dwarf' and a 'mini'. I mean they're both smaller sizes of the original, right? I really appreciate the knowledge here. I think I just need to go look at both. Because a neighbor (an hour away) says that her mini Nubians are much more friendly than ND and that's not the picture I have gotten of them at all from reading the forums.
Meg
Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:
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