Hi All,
None of my does have had fishtails before. On Nov 2nd I gave them COWP for the first time because we'd had difficulties breeding and with pregnancies (miscarriages) in the past, and also though it would help with parasite management. Also, the coats of 2 of my 4 does looked like maybe they had a Copper deficiency. But no one had fishtails. The one goat that has successfully kidded twice (although the first time it was 3 weeks early) and that had a nice coat was my Honey, so I thought she was least likely to have a Cu deficiency.
Today I noticed that Honey's tail looked like it was fishtailing. I've attached a pic. Does this look like a fishtail? If so, can something other than Cu deficiency cause fishtails? She does not show any other signs of Cu deficiency, her coat is a beautiful soft, think shiny winter coat. Any thoughts
Judy
Replies
When people clip a goat for show, they are not trying to cover up a fishtail, they are just blending it with the rest of the body, which is clipped. You can't "cover up" a fishtail by clipping a goat for show. We used to have fishtails due to an undiagnosed copper deficiency problem, and we showed, and a typical show clip actually makes a fishtail look worse. If you're not seeing fishtails on show goats, it's because they don't have them.
It is possible to have something that looks like a fishtail in a goat that isn't copper deficient. Usually if a goat is copper deficient, they will have multiple symptoms.
Oh - I just was with my goats and this particular goat has a filled in tail now - so I suspect it was either remnant of copper deficiency in past or stickies from birth. And upon inspection - all tails are happy right now so I'm pleased.
My question about the weird trim for show goats stands! Maybe it is to "blend" with the naked shave but please educate so I can assess.
I copper bolus, they have their minerals and in my herd - I have some with shorter fluffier tails and some that have dividing tails that have some longer hairs. I will add the selenium that was suggested. An example is this goat. Is this a classic fishtail or just a dividing tail? Note - she is a week past kidding so things are still a bit sticky. But I'd like to know as I have gorgeous coats, no facial hair loss, happy eaters, great energy and a few of them have tails. Doesn't appear to be tail chompers - I've never seen a goat in my herd nibble on another goats hair. To me that would be a nutritional sign. Interested in your thoughts!
I would not be surprised to hear a vet say that a goat was "okay" (or not) simply because most vets don't have much real experience with goats. To be fair, being a vet is a very hard job because they have to treat so many different species. In humans, we have doctors specializing in certain body parts! And goats are considered a "minor species" so it is very hard to find a vet that knows much about goats. After 12 years, I am still surprised at how little over-weight a goat has to be to not get pregnant easily. It is the one thing that I don't like about extended milking. After about a year of milking, goats start to put on a few extra pounds, and I usually wind up breeding them 2-3 times before they get pregnant. I have one right now that doesn't have as much meat on her back end as Honey, and I just sent in a preg test for her today because she's not acting pregnant, and she should be.
Let us know how it goes!
Yes, we also always thought that she was "well loved". So we were a bit surprised when the vet ran his hands over her back bone and hips and said that she was actually OK. Now that he showed it to me, I can also feel it. She is though plumper than our other goats.
Our goats have been through a big change. We moved them with us when we relocated from northern CA in late June - could not bear to leave them behind. In CA they were essentially in a dry lot type situation, and given the dry climate there was very limited fresh browse (also limited parasite activity). We fed them alfalfa hay (no doubt where they got their "loved" look), very minimal grain. It was a hobby farm in the city. Then we moved to 112 acres of hilly browse and pasture in a farming community in western Massachusetts. We immediately started a pasture/browse rotation system every 5 days, and the girls have ample space to roam and play and romp. Within a month we saw the effects - coats started to shine and became soft, and I swear they were positively gleeful in this new environment and became very playful. Now winter has hit and I found there is no alfalfa out here so I am feeding them 1st cutting hay and off course they have their supplement cafe. I have a precious few bales of 2nd cutting stashed away for when we get close to kidding time.
I think the biting is what is ruffling her coat now.
Sounds like you are doing everything you can at this point. I'd agree that you shouldn't give the BoSe if you have the Se available free choice. Sounds like they needed to catch up in the beginning but are now in good shape with that. Are you absolutely sure that you have never turned your back for more than 5 seconds when the buck was in there? A few years ago I sold two does to a woman who kept emailing that they weren't coming into heat, and then one day she called me in a panic because they were both in labor. Turns out she had left them alone with the buck for a few minutes one day.
It is very possible that they're biting at each other. Goats will bite to get their message across. I almost put that in my first post! Years ago we had a goose that would bite goats in the back end and would sometimes pull out a tuft of hair, leaving a little bald spot. Goats will also bite each other's ears, so if you ever see one with a chunk of ear missing, that's probably why.
My only other thought is that perhaps she is over-weight. She looks "well loved" in the picture above. It is amazing how little extra weight can affect their fertility.
Thanks for the picture, that is helpful. I guess we have noticed that recently on occasion she has tufts of hair sticking up that look odd. But I brush them out, or they disappear on their own but reappear a day or so later. I guess I wondered if she or another doe was biting or nibbling her coat, but I have never actually seen that happen. I don't think I am describing it very well, I need to take a photo and post it.
Selenium is something I have been baffled over. I gave a BoSe shot last time before kidding which was about 18 months ago. Recently I read on this forum about the Selenium supplement from Caprine supply so I bought a pail and have set it out free choice with their other minerals for about a month now. when I first set it out they all nibbled quite a bit, but no one touches it since. I continue to refresh it weekly though when I clean the feeders. Last week I asked the vet about giving a BoSe shot and he advised against it since I was providing the Selenium supplement free choice, he was concerned about Selenium toxicity. So I am confused on weather they need it. Maybe since no one is really interested in it, they are not Selenium deficient since goats seem to know what they need? Is there any other way to know if they are Selenium deficient? Other free choice options I have for them are Sweetlix minerals, kelp and baking soda.
I just uploaded a picture of a doe that's copper deficient:
http://nigeriandwarfgoats.ning.com/photo/copper-deficient-doe
As for Honey, what about selenium? Goats low on selenium will also have fertility issues. Some people do BoSe shots (Rx), but I prefer to use a free-choice selenium supplement from Caprine Supply. It looks like sawdust and sits in a dish next to the Sweetlix minerals. I use the mineral feeder at the bottom of the right-hand column on this page.
I guess I am not sure what to look for. Her coat is very nice and fluffy, soft, nice winter coat. Her weight is "just right". She seems to have an active rumen, so she has some larger sides but the vet says she is OK on weight. We are trying to breed everyone and so far she has not come in to heat but I don't think that is a huge concern yet because we have only been putting the buck with the does for 2 weeks. We put them together twice a day, supervised sessions so that I know who was bred when. In the past Honey kidded twice, she kids soooo very easily. She literally lays down, pushes once and the kids fall out. First kidding was 2 does born 3 weeks premature, only one lived and we have kept her (she has a place on our farm for life). Second kidding was 3 bucklings + 1 still born, again an easy kidding but close to due date. But since she kids so easily and does not show many signs that she is going to kid soon, I like to know the date she was bred. The vet gave her a clean bill of health last week. Her temp is a bit low (101F) but it has always tended to be that way. She is my herd queen. What else should I be looking for? She is very social, affectionate, called Honey because she is as sweet as Honey.
That is not a copper-deficiency fishtail. In cases of copper deficiency, the goat basically sheds a lot of its hair on the tip of its tail and also on its face. The hair loss on the tip of the tail winds up making it look like the goat has a fish tail because there are so few long hairs left that they tend to stick together, usually on two sides, giving a forked appearance like a fish's tail. Your goat's hair is just sort of parting, but it's obviously still very bushy. If you look on this page -- http://nigeriandwarfdairygoats.com/bucks.html -- and scroll down to the very bottom, those two bucks' pictures were taken before we knew we had a problem with copper deficiency. Those are two of the first bucks we owned, and they died at age 3. They have almost no tail hair left. They have 1/2 of a fish tail.
Have you seen any other symptoms of a problem?