What in my water is causing copper antagonism??

 I just got results back from a water test. 

 
While I thought I had high Iron - I actually did not according to the water test - .004mg/l  (EPA limit is .30 )
 
However, since the water is softened (whole system is softened so can't use outside hose to get unsoftened water), there is high salt (sodium) in the water.
 
Also, Chloride  (not chlorine - this is a well) is high.
 
And alkalinity is somewhat high.
 
Sulfates are present but not high (in EPA's opinion) 14.7 mg/l when they worry about 250 mg/l....
 
 
Since I have a HUGE issue with copper deficiency in the winter but much less in summer when my goats drink rain water - what is it that is the issue?
 
Is the little bit of iron an issue?  Is the fact we have salt in the water making them eat less minerals? Water doesn't taste salty.  Is the alkalinity possibly an issue?
 
Anything leap to mind. 
 
I know we sometimes have sulfur smell but the sulfates (if that measures sulfur) were not high.
 
Confused!
 
Judy

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  • That link was just meant as a way to explain the antagonism issue with minerals and NOT as an endorsement of ABC. One thing I don't like about them is that many of their minerals have crazy-high levels of salt -- like 80-90%, which has been shown to drive mineral consumption, which research has shown will totally skew the animal's ability to regulate their intake of the mineral because it's based upon the salt and NOT the mineral that you want them to have.

    I do salad bar as much as I can. The problem is that it's tough to find individual minerals. I have our four dishes available: Sweetlix Meat Maker, selenium-E (Caprine Supply), baking soda, kelp. I have found a place that sells bulk minerals and am contemplating buying copper from them and mixing it with something as a carrier. The challenge with the carrier is to find something that they wouldn't want to just gobble up and ultimately poison themselves with too much copper. The selenium uses wheat middlings, so based upon the research I read, the copper should have a different carrier so the animals will recognize it. Or maybe that won't be a challenge? Maybe it's just an unfounded fear of mine that they'll over-consume based upon the carrier. I now have four retired does and am thinking that this will be their new job -- testing this new mineral concept for me. Their coats looks terrible, so it'll be easy to see if it works.

    And yes, my goats are all looking great now, even the one who lost about 20% of her hair. I haven't seen this before and am still puzzling over it. 

  • I've always believed in this concept but what items would you have out??? His list was for cows. ABC sells minerals- very expensive and they are very hostile to kelp. Clearly alot of folks have dealt with something this winter. Anyone use the salad bar concept?

    Deborah- are you seeing a rebalance in your animals? If they balance due to browse- that doesn't help going into winter.
  • Copper and selenium are both important for fertility, but hair is usually copper-related.

    Here is an article about mineral antagonism:

    http://mosesorganic.org/mineral-requirements/

    I've heard Doc Holliday speak at a couple of different conferences and think you'll like his approach.

  • Well - I had them add on the Molybdenum test and it is a ND - not detected at all.  And I don't feed alfalfa except a couple treats per month.  I pretty much only feed the adult goats hay, minerals, kelp and some sunflower seeds and sometimes some flax seed. Hay has no alfalfa in it.

    Can selenium deficiency look like copper deficiency?  That is my next addition this weekend. I seem to recall Deborah that you mentioned there was a relationship.

    A woman in my general area has a bunch of Nigerians - says she has same issues - copper deficiency in winter when goats are not on browse and she is giving well water.  She has had to bolus monthly for most of her goats and more than that with a few.  She does supplement with selenium and still has the low copper symptoms - especially this year.

    If iodine or selenium are missing in diet - then perhaps the copper in the bolus might not be utilized as well???? Although Deborah - you saw copper deficiency this winter despite doing selenium as did this VT woman.   I'm just brainstorming. I bolused 2 weeks ago and expect to see a bit faster turn-around. Granted - no one is horrible but in past - I've had reactions that were faster and stayed longer. I feel I got a fast "nicer coats" but then that faded away except for 2 of my goats.

    Other years I have fed a bit more grain - this is first winter with O grain - do you think that that would tip the balance?

    My black goat (queen) is like a dog - she can be gorgeous and shiney, then eats something or comes into heat and dandruff erupts. That is how I learned about alfalfa before reading it here. Every time I fed her chaffhaye - she'd go dull and have dandruff within 1 hour of eating it.  So today - she is shiney, then she hangs around the fence near the new little bucks, flips into heat and erupts into dandruff.  Geez!

  • Ditto on the molybdenum! Alfalfa can be high in molybdenum. I don't recall what type of hay you have, but that could be the issue.

  • Does your test show molybdenum levels? Molybdenum also binds with copper. Our sulphur isn't particularly high but our molybdenum is and we have to supplement with copper quite a bit.
  • Obviously I'm not an expert, but I would say that "not high" levels of sulfates for humans might not equal the same for goats. I would say it's the sulfur in the water, especially if you can smell it. 

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