Capri finally started having Friday late in the day. Bubble broke around 10:40 but no real contractions. Called a friend then my helper who came over. Baby not coming out, called vet. Long story short, baby born breach at 12:15 a.m. Breach is a bit misleading as she really came out in a ball, rear first. How helper got her out, I still don't know. Second entering birth canal but at 4:30 a.m. still not born, also breach. Baby has had little colostrum, am now thawing some of Capri's milk to give her but will try to milk more colostrum from Capri before giving it to her - Capri is *not* cooperative.
Last year was so very easy, one baby, quick labor, not problems. Cannot believe this is happening. She is carrying at least triplets but only one born so far. Cute little thing but no real meals yet.
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Yes, Margaret, I did mean that if Summer (a FF) had been carrying quads, the delivery would still have been easy and as it should have been and usually is. I want to be sure that our new goat owners understand that what happened with Capri is absolutely *not* what usually happens and that most kiddings are like Summer's was, easy and full of only joy.
Capri was in labor for so long because she simply could *not* push hard enough to get the babies out. Between her contractions being weak and the babies so big and breach, she could not do it by herself. If I had been gone for the weekend, I would have returned to a dead doe. Her contractions were so weak and so far apart, I was not even sure she was in labor even though she had already had the bubble/mucus. Even at the vet's office, he had to use the loop to get one of them out. She didn't even have any true contractions there. No, he didn't use oxytocin on her or anything else; he told me before we headed out there that the remaining babies were very likely dead and was very surprised any of them had survived. Remember, the one I have left (second born) was visible by 12:30 a.m. and not delivered until after 8:00 a.m. and only with a great deal of help. If you read the original post, you will see it took over 1-1/2 hours for the first baby to be born with the second there as soon as it was delivered.
There is no way of comparing her kidding this April with her kidding last year or Summer's kidding. It was not normal in any sense. She appeared to have been in distress many hours before it was obvious delivery was soon. She was with me constantly and did not want me to leave her even to go in the house briefly.
Before I breed her again, I will be having a serious talk with her breeder to find out what went on with her first kidding. There may have been a reason, undisclosed, as to why this was the only doe of all that she had that she sold or her first may have been quite uneventful to deliver triplets. In looking back and comparing with Summer's kidding, Capri may have very well been having trouble last year as well and I just didn't know enough to realize it. Fortunately, Ginger was born head first. I did think at the time it was taking a long time but had nothing to compare with. Summer's were born within a very few minutes of first sight; the 2nd and 3rd only a minute or two apart though there was a half hour between the first and them. Summer did *not* have contractions for that half hour whereas Capri was having continual contractions last year from the time the bubble appeared and Ginger was fully born.
Having witnessed what Capri went through for these babies to be born, it makes total sense to me that her uterine muscles just were not strong enough to deliver these babies normally. She simply did not have any normal "pushing" through any of it though she clearly needed to push. Even at the vet's office, she had no strong contractions and had no more than half a dozen at the most throughout the two plus hours we were there before the last baby was "born." I don't know that I will ever get over how I felt when the vet dropped that precious little buck into the garbage can like afterbirth; it just felt so very wrong; I have tried to reason myself out of it but it doesn't work and that I lost another three days and another ten days later doesn't help to accept how wrong I thought it was. When he asked if I wanted the doeling back after the necropsy, there was no way I could let that little girl be dropped in the trash can as well; it would have been incredibly cruel.
Come fall/late summer, I will be gathering as many raspberry vines from friends as I can and will be buying raspberry as well for her and feed it to her continuously throughout pregnancy if I do breed her again. She is such a great mother, she deserves to have babies every year or two but I don't know that I can risk her going through this again. I have said if this had happened last year, all the goats would have been sold - I just horribly had the worst happen so early and most never have such a thing happen.
I am truly concerned about her reaction when her little boy is gone; she cried for the little girl for two days after her death. This will be the first time all her babies are gone; Summer is from her first litter and Ginger was her second litter. Ginger is clearly just another goat at this time and not her baby as is Summer as well. Maybe little boy will be so ornery, she will be glad to see him leave; one can hope but I'm not optimistic. I feel awful planning to take her baby away from her. While I could wether him and keep him here, that would leave me with five since I am keeping Summer's doeling for now. Four I might get away with but five might not work so well. Of course, this is the same person that still has the suit and shoes she wore at her graduation 50 years ago this Saturday! I don't part easily with things I like.<g>
(The more I clean out the stalls, the easier it may get to rehome some!)
Just to make sure, since it was my SECOND choice of what you meant! When you said "I think if it had been quads that it would have been the same.", did you mean that you think Summer still would have had them easy?
I am still pretty confused about what this vet said also. It doesn't really make since to me. I am going to have to go back and read some of this because I can't even remember if he used oxytocin on her, or why she was in labor for so long.
I can understand you being concerned about breeding her again, because we are always worrying about them. But considering her age, condition and the wonderful care she gets and all, I think I would. What I would probably do is milk her through as long as possible, and give her uterus a good rest. Then breed her for Fall next year instead of Spring.
Personally, I am thinking that Capri is one of those does whose body is one that utilizes the calories very well. Remembering her milk last year was very rich (at least 40 percent cream as indicated by the photos), it makes sense that it would be the same with her babies. Ginger was 4-1/2 lbs. and these babies were all large though I didn't weigh them with all that was going on (the vet commented on how large they were). Compared to Summer's born the next day, they were definitely larger who I didn't weigh either for the same reason.
Capri did have contractions but was unable to push hard enough to deliver on her own. In addition to three of the four babies being breach, the vet felt that her muscles just were not strong enough to finish pushing them out. She got them to the point of being visible but not able to push further. This was true with the first one at home and the rest at the vet's office; she simply was not having strong enough contractions to help. Of course, by the time she got to the vet, I am quite certain her poor body was exhausted having been in labor at least nine hours at that point with a baby on the verge of birth for eight of those hours. The contractions she did have were not strong at all and quite a ways apart, 15-45 minutes even with the baby visible (crowning?).
So no one worries needlessly, Capri's full sister had quints two years in a row with no problems at all. Two years ago, as a FF, Capri had triplets. Summer, who I was concerned about, was a FF this year and had triplets with the greatest ease imaginable; I think if it had been quads that it would have been the same.
Both does had the same feeding schedule and feed. Capri is Summer's mother. All things point to Capri's body rather than buck, number or feed. Though I am very concerned about a next pregnancy for Capri (if there is one!), I am not for my other does and certainly do not want others to worry needlessly because of what happened April 5th and 6th. It was very likely a fluke related specifically to Capri.
that makes sense - if the doe is in good condition - the extra would go to the kids.
Provided a buck is within the height limit, I haven't heard of anyone having problems with a buck always throwing big kids. I think it is more likely the doe, based upon what she is fed and how well her body utilizes that feed. If a doe is well conditioned, feeding her grain or other rich foods during pregnancy will just grow bigger kids because her body doesn't need those nutrients. And just as there are some does who push all of their calories into the milk-making department (to the point that some get really thin during lactation), I suspect there might be some who push more of their calories to growing babies.
I don't feed any grain to my does until the last week or two of pregnancy, and in the case of first fresheners, I give them very little grain (sometimes none) at the end of pregnancy because they tend to have singles, which will be bigger than twins or more. And FFs are smaller than mature does. That is also why I wait until they weigh 40 pounds before even breeding.
As far as what Glenna's vet said about a doe with quads having a uterus that is so stretched out that she can't have contractions -- I wouldn't want anyone worrying that a doe carrying multiples may have that problem. Lots and lots of ND does successfully give birth to four kids, and five or six is not even unheard of. I'm also a little confused by the statement because if she was dilated, she was having contractions. Wasn't there a kid in a bad position that needed to be straightened out? (Or maybe I'm thinking of a different birth?)
Melissa, I believe it's not the buck. I have a doe that had very large kids last year, and again this year. This year they were better, but I did not grain her for her ENTIRE pregnancy. I didn't want to risk large kids. I only introduced grain once she delivered. It worked, but even without grain, her kids were pretty large. I had a different buck this pregnancy.
Melissa Johnson said:
Cannot answer that question, Melissa. All of Capri's born here have been big but with all the trauma and fight to keep Baby #3 alive, I never did weigh them - at that point it was the farthest thing from my mind. Vet commented on how big each one was as he delivered them with each being bigger than the one before. Last year, Ginger was 4-1/2 pounds but was a single. I'm thinking it's not necessarily the buck since Summer's kids this year have Ginger's father as theirs and they were normal size.
It may be that Capri is prone to having larger babies for some reason. I'm considering whether she should be bred again as it looks like the four she had this are big like last year. I will need to talk to her breeder to see what her first litter (triplets) were like. I have a friend who currently has a smaller buck (and with blue eyes which Capri's sister has blue eyes) and if she still has him in the fall, I may bred her to him.
It is not diet as far as I know. I re-introduced grain a month before due date and cut back after two weeks to reduce weight gain on the babies which is what has been recommended.
The worst part of this story is that I have only one of her babies left, a beautiful black buckling, who has no nibbles on a new owner. I hate to think after having lost three of the four that he will have to become dinner for someone - it makes it all seem so pointless. With his bloodlines and personality, he will make an incredible herd sire and is beautiful besides. I have to make a decision very soon as they will all be two months old next weekend and time for wethering since I have no realistic way to separate them so there cannot be any accidental breeding. He, especially, is big enough to get the job done if he is capable.
Regarding a smaller buck, I would be concerned about the does born as a result since they might not be safely bred to a larger buck and buyers would have to be cautioned about that possibility.
One of the many sad things about this story is that the doe I bred for died at ten days. I will, however, breed Summer to Crazy next time and may still get that special doe especially since Summer is being such a terrific milker so far.
So, I guess the answer to your question, Melissa, is that it is neither in my case, just a terrible, terrible experience. My Capri may be prone to more efficient usage of her food for her unborn babies than most does resulting in bigger babies. These babies were born Day 149, four days later than Ginger, which would naturally make them heavier than quads born at Day 145.
Something that I think I said in another thread about all of this is that though Capri had no real contractions, it was not because she was not in labor. The vet said because her uterine muscles were so stretched by the quads that she simply could *not* have strong contractions and wasn't able to push them out. In other words, in the wild she would have died as none could have been born.
what is up with the big kids?? Is it the size of the buck or grain feeding during pregnancy?? or both? I am beginning to wonder if a smaller buck is a Godsend. ??
Hugs, Glenna. It sounds like you did everything right. I love your resting place for your little guy.
So sorry for your loss, Glenna, but you did everything you could.
You can get an oral selenium supplement through the goat catalogs, so you don't need to get it from the vet. Only the injectable is prescription because it can be toxic. I may have missed something in the discussion, but I'm not sure why you feel it's urgent. White muscle disease is pretty obvious, and it sound like your babies are fine.
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