Under weight does

Are there other reasons than parasites that can cause weight loss? I have 2 does who were both quite zinc deficient this last winter. I have supplemented and the one especially is showing signs of improvement. Coat color coming back, hair growing in on her nose etc. Both does are quite underweight and they're getting, free choice hay, Chaffhaye every evening and BOSS every evening with grain occasionally. I have 2 other does who are doing well with this regime and I'm puzzled as to how to put weight on these girls. I've given them a healthy amount of DE in their food to several month before running out and stopping for several weeks. I have more ordered and can start giving it again but I haven't noticed much change, if any. One doe miscarried in January and the other had twins about 6 weeks ago. Both have rough coats, and hair loss on their noses and are quite bony. My other two does both had twins and seem to being doing well with them and are maintaining weight pretty well. The one has a slightly rough coat but is in great weight the other has a nice coat but maybe could use a tiny bit of extra weight. Am I just not feeding enough or is something else going on? With 4 does, 6 kids, and 1 alpaca we're feeding a 5 gal bucket of Chaffhaye on the days they don't get fresh pasture and on the days they do we feed a little less. Most days they get at least some fresh stuff which they love of course. I let them eat (fresh pasture) until they start being mischievous and loose interest in eating. They also have free choice Sweetlix Meatmaker Minerals out. I'm sure I'm missing something but I just can't figure out What!!

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  • I've purchased a 1-pound bag of wormwood from Frontier Coop in the past, although I know there are other places online where you can purchase herbs in bulk. Much cheaper that way! Let us know what kind of results you have.

  • I checked eyelids yesterday and I have varying shades of pink. Most are lighter than I am comfortable with. I took some wormwood out and one doe inhaled the capsules. The rest licked up the powder when I broke them open. I gave them all I had and then I had a mix of herbs that had wormwood in so I put that out for the free choice.
  • I top dress the COWP with adults on the milk stand. Just sprinkle it on the grain. Research has shown no difference in top dressing or bolusing. I only bolus for small kids because they don't want to eat when they're separated from everyone else. I use a suppository applicator for them. It's the same thing that is sold with medicines, such as those for vaginal yeast. You can buy ONE suppository applicator for about the same price as a generic vaginal yeast medication, which comes with SEVEN applicators.

    Wormwood is actually quite invasive. I started it from seeds, and now it's spread about 10 feet from where the original plants were placed. It becomes a woody perennial. It's even beating out my mint in the area. The plants get about 4 feet tall.

    I really encourage you to check the goats' eyelids. If they're white or pale pink, you really don't have time to lose. I've had goats die from parasites before I even knew they were sick. Being prey animals, they are very good at hiding it when they don't feel well.

  • Hmm well, maybe I could just try and see if they'll eat the wormwood and maybe that will give me my answer on whether or not they have worms. What does it take to grow your own wormwood?
    I'll get the sel-E from Caprine Supply and see what they think of it.
    I gave each doe about one capsule which would be about 4g. One of my does is Terrible for spitting out the capsule so I split it open and mixed some grain with the particles because I didnt know any other way to get it down her. She at least ate it that way. I'd be very open to other ways of getting down them!!! I'm afraid to stick my fingers in too far for fear I'll get bitten. She's very smart and holding her mouth shut until she swallows doesn't work.
  • How much copper did you give the does?

  • Copper binds with sulfur, iron, and molybdenum. Sulfur and iron can be in well water. Molybdenum can be high in alfalfa but isn't always high enough to be a problem. Plus it depends on what percentage of the diet is alfalfa. It's not usually a problem if goats are also on pasture.

    The problem with the wormwood capsules is that is a very tiny quantity. It would take a lot of capsules to add up to a couple tablespoons. I have found that if goats have worms, they eat up wormwood like crazy. If I walk into the barn with a handful of fresh wormwood, the ones with worms will jump on me. You could just open the capsules and put the wormwood into a measuring spoon, then sprinkle it on grain or in a pan. 

    Selenium gel has very little selenium in it. You might try free choice selenium-E from Caprine Supply, but selenium doesn't usually correlate with weight loss at all. 

  • I have copper bbolused my does within the last couple months because I thought perhaps they were copper deficient with their rough faded coats. I haven't seen any improvement from that but I did front the zinc. My one doe went crazy for the supplemental zinc, licking it from my hands and begging for more. No that she's improving she'll still take some but her craving is gone. I do have some wormwood on hand so I may try that. It's in capsules for humans so surely it's good enough for my goats. I haven't figured out yet how to get them to take it tho.
    Back to the copper, last year one of the same does Im having a problem with now had a rough coat and the copper bolus helped. While I understand that it could be for other reasons, are there things that keep copper from absorbing or anything? I remember something about iron, seems like. I know we have very Hard water but don't know much more about it than that. I gave all my does a small dose of Sel/E gel recently at the recommendation of the previous owner of 2 of my girls (one of the does from her is underweight one doesn't, they're mother & daughter.) I haven't checked eyelids for a while so I'll check that again.
  • If parasites have never shown up in fecals, then someone is doing something wrong.  There is no such thing as a goat living on pasture that has zero parasites. Are you immediately taking in poop that you just saw the goats pass? A fecal can only find eggs, and they will start to hatch within hours when temps are warm.

    Have you checked eyelids?

    Copper deficiency can cause all sorts of problems because it is very important to the immune system. A goat that is copper deficient will have a lot more trouble with a small load of parasites than a goat that is not deficient. Also, copper oxide wire particles are a natural dewormer for stomach worms, such as barber pole. The copper lodges in the stomach and dissolves over the course of a month. There are a lot of studies (15 or more) that have studied it. It doesn't help with intestinal worms though.

    I have used wormwood in the past. Sometimes it works as well as a chemical dewormer. Sometimes it doesn't work at all. The problem is that the strength can vary from one batch to the next, which is why I am growing my own wormwood now. Unfortunately I don't have any recommendations for you on how much fresh wormwood to use -- although it's a LOT. If you used dried wormwood, you have to use quite a bit. One study said a pound, but I had success with smaller amounts -- like a couple of tablespoons twice a day for about five days. There was a study done on Molly's herbal and showed no difference between the control group and the group that got her dewormer, probably because the amount of wormwood the goats were getting was tiny. I had a goat die when I was using Molly's. I was using 2X what she says and used it for a week, and the eggs in his fecals did not go down at all. I also found no effectiveness when using Fir Meadow and Hoegger's. I talked to Joan Burke, PhD about it (she has done a lot of studies on natural dewormers), and she said they probably just don't have enough wormwood in them.

  • I've had fecals done on my one doe multiple times and parasites have never shown up. I don't know if my vet doesn't do them right or if there's a few and he doesn't think its a problem so he says there aren't any or what. I Hate using chemicals due to being violently reactive to them (I was closer to dead than I care to fully realize from exposures.). I'm lothe to use chemicals on my does because they're useless to me for milk for far longer than the withdrawal time started on the working packages. Do you know of a way to pull the last residue of the chemicals from their systems? Any additional ways to naturally get rid of worms would be much appreciated.
    I'll go thru your book again, and see if I can find some more ideas as well. If I treat them for parasites and they don't improve can mineral deficiencies cause weight loss?
  • I'm not surprised you didn't see any difference with the DE. Unfortunately there isn't much evidence that DE works as a dewormer. The American Consortium for Parasite Control in Small Ruminants tests all sorts of alternative dewormers, and none of their studies has shown that DE works. I personally tried using DE, and it didn't work here. I know there are people who swear it works, but they are always people who have never had a problem with parasites, so there are many possible reasons why they may not have parasites. For example, they may have pastures full of lespedeza servicea, which is a proven dewormer. Believe me, no one wanted DE to work more than me! I still have about 25 pounds of it! At least I can use it in the garden. It does kill tomato horn worms.

    I'm not sure if that's a typo in your second sentence, and if you meant to say "life" or "lice," so I'll address both. The only worms you would see in the goat's poop is tape worms. All other worms are microscopic, and you'd have to do a fecal or take poop to the vet to get a definitive diagnosis. If you meant lice, they are little white crawly things. You separate the hair and stare for about 15 seconds. You might not see movement right away. Hair around the shoulders and neck is usually a good place to check.

    For barber pole worm, you can check the eyelids. Pull down the eyelid, and if it's light pink or white, the goat is anemic, which is usually caused by barber pole worm because they attach themselves to the inside of the goat's stomach and suck their blood. The eyelids should be bright red or dark pink, and you should check outside in natural sunlight. Other types of worm eat the contents of the goat's stomach or intestines, so they just generally cause weight loss. Some cause diarrhea, but not all.

    Having worms is much better than the alternative -- Johnes disease, whose main symptom is weight loss. Once you have animals on your property with Johnes, the pasture is considered infected for at least five years. It's highly contagious. Makes worms seem like no big deal.

    Raising Goats Naturally discusses parasites for 24 pages, so it's tough to summarize here. Worms are the leading cause of death so not something to play around with. You should be able to get the book from your library, if you don't want to buy it. If they don't have it, they can get it for you through inter-library loan.

    To treat the goats for worms, you can buy a dewormer at your local farm store. Safeguard or Ivomec (ivermectin) are common. You need to double the dosage on the label for both of them, even if it says it's for goats (Safeguard), and give orally, even if it says it's injectable (Ivomec).

    At this point, you need to treat them with a dewormer, but once that's under control, there are a lot of things you can do to prevent infection. Here is an excerpt on that section from the book: http://www.homegrownandhandmadethebook.com/2015/04/internal-parasit...

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