-25My doe had her first three kids Sunday night. Mom and all babies are now doing fine, albeit I had two weak ones for the first 24 hours or so. The reason for the weaknesses is (I think) the birth process.
The first kid presented nose only. I had watched a bunch of videos and read and knew there was supposed to be hooves first, but by the time I realized what I was looking at , the nose was out about an inch or two and everything was very tight. I also knew that intervening carries it's own set of risks and that a number of people far more experienced than I recommend not intervening whereever possible. So I waited. And waited - for a good 20 minutes. Tenny (my doe) was laying down, and I finally started putting my hands against the bottom of her back hooves so she had something to push against. The head then came out and got stuck, but at this point I was scared so reached in a finger and pulled out the legs, which did the trick. So I'm wondering if I should have done that first off.
The second baby was textbook, no problems.
The third baby presented hocks (as in bent hind legs) first, although it took me a little while to figure out what I was looking at. I had no idea what to do (12:30 a.m. PST doesn't offer a lot for instant internet help & my vet lives 30 min away) and didn't know if I should go in and try to turn the baby given that the hocks were already sticking out of the birth canal. Again, the pushing took about 10 minutes, with me holding Tenny's hooves. The baby did come that way (a big guy, too), but I am still wondering if it would have been better for me to have pushed the hocks back in & tried to turn the baby.
Tenny was very worn out yesterday &, as I said, two of the babies struggled some at first. Would I have been better off helping straighten out the babies a little more?
Replies
Hooking your finger under a front leg is not a really big deal. However, to answer your other question, yes, lots of does are able to give birth to a kid that is presenting head only. It depends on the doe and the size of the kid. If the kid is 2#, it would be a piece of cake. On the other hand, if it's 4#, you might need to look for a front leg. But you only know that after waiting to see if she is able to push it out on her own. In our second year lambing, we had a ewe run around the pasture with the head sticking out for 45 minutes! It was a yearling with a huge single lamb. We learned very quickly that those little babies are far more resilient than we might assume. We named the baby Miracle, but a decade later, I realize it wasn't that extraordinary that she survived. We did have to reach in there to grab her front leg to get her out, but contrary to what some people think, there is no rush.
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I think *technically* some people might consider than intervening, but I personally consider that minor compared to what a lot of people do. Using a finger to adjust a leg, is not invasive in the way that pushing a kid back in to turn it, or putting your hand into the birth canal is. Any time you touch a doe back there, you risk introducing something, but the less you reach in, and the less you push things back in, the less risk you take of things like ruptured uterus, etc. I think you did a great job of making just the right amount of adjusting without going all in on an intervention.
Thanks for all of the replies/thoughts. I guess I need one more clarification - is intervening considered to be anytime you are reaching in (e.g. when I reached a finger in with the first and hooked a leg - due to the full head being out & seemingly stuck), is that considered intervening? Or is intervening when you have your full hand in? Or is there no true definition & I'm splitting hairs here? Just a little confused.
Can a doe get a baby out on her own if it is head-first and all legs are behind? It was one of the things I was most unsure about, especially given how long she was pushing. I was worried about her getting too tired, especially with the first. When I sat there for the 20+ minutes watching, I kept thinking, "what if a baby can't get out this way?" It's one of those situations where a total lack of experience is really hindering.
Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. With non-textbook deliveries, it's a little nerve-wracking.
I think you've gotten some good input, but I'm adding my vote that you made a good call. As hard as it can be. The advantage of your breech kid, was that it was the last and not the first, so your doe probably had the best chance of getting it out with it being born in that order. Sounds like you did a great job being a support system, and keeping an eye on things. Congratulations to you and your new momma!
We've had two c-sections. The first doe had four kids, but only two made it, and they nursed. Her production, however, was terrible. She did manage to feed the two kids, but her production was a shadow of what it had been in the past. The other doe had two dead kids. We milked her three times a day for the first month or so, and her production never got close to what it had been in the past. That is to be expected. A c-section takes a lot out of a doe, and it's not unusual for their production to be less than normal.
Obviously in your friend's case, the kids were not too big to be born, just big enough to be a challenge. In both of our c-sections, they saved the life of the doe. In one case, the doe's uterus wouldn't dilate, and in the other case, the kid was just too big. He was 5# with his legs hanging off the scale, and the doe was only 19" tall, so it was a deadly combination of big kid, small mama. If a doe truly cannot give birth to the kids, then she will die, although it will be a few days. Basically sepsis will set in as the kids start to decompose. I know someone who had a doe that was pregnant with six, but she only gave birth to five. She died a few days later. The vet did a necropsy and found dead kid number six. It is highly unusual for does to not give birth to all of the kids when they go into labor, so it's not something that your average goat owner needs to be worried about. Generally when they're done, they're done.
I really like my vets. We have a good relationship. If my vet happened to be at a birth and said a c-section was necessary I would follow their professional advice.
I was sitting with a doe on Sunday who had been in labour for a long time. It had been hours. Not hours of pushing labour, just early labour, walking around, stretching, standing up and lying down, but with that thousand yard stare they can get. I knew she was trying to work something out. When she finally started pushing it was clearly hard work. Turned out the first one was a large girl coming out tail first. All that early labour stuff must have been trying to get kids into a better position. I was texting a friend about it at the time who is very involved in the human childbirth community, talking about how difficult it was not to jump in and help. Her response back to me was that their saying is "the best midwife is one who sits quietly in the corner and knits". So I sat. And Daisy managed to birth 3 kids, the first and last being complete breech.
If everyone is doing great, then you definitely made the right call. If you had intervened, it might have turned out okay, or you might have wound up with a ruptured uterus or an infection or who knows.
Last week someone on Facebook was upset that a doe died from a postpartum infection following a birth where she had intervened. She was kicking her self for not using a stronger antibiotic. I have no idea why she intervened in that particular situation, but that is exactly WHY I don't intervene unless I'm convinced that I have nothing to lose. I think far too many people are far too comfortable intervening, thinking that they should do everything possible and that nothing can go wrong if they intervene. After personally having a doe die from a ruptured uterus when a vet pulled kids, I am even more apt to sit on my hands, watchfully waiting.
A few years ago I decided that my ultimate loyalty lies with my does. They're the ones who have everything to lose when we start intervening. You might be upset if you lose a kid, but it pales in comparison to losing a doe.