Ginger lost her twins

Rather then re-type this, I have copied it from my page at VanEdenGoats.com - I hope that does not offend anyone.  Regardless of what you are told; if you have questions, call your vet!!!  The very last sentence *is* absolute truth.

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First, Ginger’s due date was February 28th based on Day 143 which is when most of my does kid.  Gestation is officially 145-155 days.  On Monday, March 7th, at 2:00 a.m., Ginger started calling but did not appear to be in labor as in no contractions.  The previous two nights I had slept in her stall with her because I was worried with her going too long and having larger kids needing help. As the day progressed there was no change with no obvious contractions, discharge, etc.  A factor in my decisions, or lack thereof, was that I had been ill for several days and had little sleep (not more than five hours since Friday morning) and the day before there had been a major heartbreaking incident with a very close family member.  Another goat owner and friend called me late Monday morning and asked how Ginger was doing.  When I told her, she said her doe had done that for 28 hours before she delivered her babies; she also said it was “pre-labor” and of no concern.  I will always regret she called because in my over-tired and stressed condition, I accepted what she said and did not call my vet.

By evening, I was getting very concerned even though it did not appear she was in labor.  I did take some video of her and later uploaded it and my goat person viewed it.  She called me (it was 3:30 a.m. Tuesday at this point) and told me she was going to show it to her boss (vet).  She called me as soon as he looked at it and told me he said to call my vet immediately!  By this time, Ginger had stopped her calling but looking at her, there was still no discharge.

When I called the vet’s office, I told them I was concerned that there was no discharge of any kind with this being Day 152.  When the vet arrived, he determined her cervix was not opening and had to be dilated.  I had this done with my first child so know how incredibly painful that is – to this day the worst pain I have ever had – and I knew what was going on and why. My poor little girl had no idea except her mama person was holding her still while this horrible person was hurting her so badly.  The vet opened her cervix as much as he could but said, because it was still small, he would not be able to get his larger hand inside to deliver the kids and she may need a c-section.  He called another vet from their office who had the day off and lives not far from me; she was able to come to help.  With her much-smaller hands, she delivered the babies (sparing Ginger a c-section), a buckling (almost five pounds) and a doeling (almost three pounds), but they had already died while waiting to be born.  There were also two fetuses attached to the placenta so she initially had quads.  The buckling looked like it might be breathing so my wonderful vet gave him mouth-to-mouth but it was too late for the little guy.  Of course, after all this, the vet needed to check Ginger inside to be sure that all babies were out and that there were not tears because of all that had to be done so still more pain for my sweet, gentle, little girl.

The vet gave her the appropriate shots, etc., for what had been done and left the meds to follow up.  In the following days, my eldest son administered shots as needed and I buried pills in apple slices.  Even though my vet called me on Wednesday to see how Ginger was doing, I called the office on Thursday and asked for someone to come out and check her – I did not trust myself, still sick and over-tired and now even more stressed, to determine how she was doing.  The vet checked out Ginger and told me she was doing as well as she could with what she went through.

I made a horrible mistake not calling the vet on Monday.  In my sick, tired and stressed condition, I blindly listened to someone who may not have truly understood what I said.  My vet told me there is NO SUCH THING AS PRE-LABOR!  It is first-stage labor and it is during this time the babies get into position for birth and usually lasts a very short period of time.  Then they go into full labor.  Ginger did not go into full labor (with obvious contractions) because the babies were not able to get into the birth canal as they should have because her cervix did not open.  Any time a doe is in labor for 2-4 hours and there is not progress, there is possibly a problem and you need to call your vet.  If I had called him on Monday, my sweet girl would have a little boy and little girl out there with her.  Instead, I have a doe who is still calling for babies that will never come and desperately looking for them in the kidding pen whenever she goes in there; as I type this, it is 12 days after birth.  She is my friendliest and most loving doe who always came up to me immediately.  She does not come up to me and will run from me – wants nothing to do with me.  I was the person who held her for all that pain; she has not forgotten!  I cannot say I blame her but I do hope she gets better emotionally.  Her two younger sisters are due mid-April; I hope she is better by then or she might try to steal a baby which would be fine for her but not for her sister.

While there were reasons for me making a horribly bad judgement call by not calling the vet on Monday morning, it doesn’t change the fact that I am responsible for Ginger’s care and welfare and I let her down and she paid the price for my error in judgement.  My vet compassionately, but sternly, told me, “You know you can call me any time day or night!” which I know to be true.

If there is any question about how your doe is progressing, contact your vet.  It is the conversation with your vet asking questions as to what is going on at this moment and the time leading up to it that will better determine what is needed.  Friends, even goat-owning friends, mean well but it is your vet whose advice you need to follow.

One of the last things my vet told me that day is absolute truth: “The only call you regret is the call you didn’t make.”

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  • I'll start when I started using the new scale which weighs by fractions of pounds rather than ounces.

    March 25 = 2.22 lbs.; March 26 = 2.58 lbs.; March 27 - 2.12 lbs.; March 28 = 2.45 lbs.; March 29 = 2.33 lbs.

    So an average of 2.34 lbs. for this five-day period with today being three weeks from kidding.  That does not include some spilled milk (or kicked milk!).  If they reach maximum production at two months, I am optimistic that she will produce two quarts (four lbs.) a day.  I have a two-week sample for testing and will be sending in samples periodically so I can track her butterfat throughout lactation.

    Ginger has started letting me walk up to her much of the time and occasionally comes to me again.  Color me pleased.  She is learning manners on the milk stand.  Some times I am able to milk one side without needing to hold her leg

  • Glenna, 
    The cake is wonderful! 
    I hope Ginger knows how much she is loved.


    How much milk is Ginger producing? Please keep us informed. 

  • I'm glad things are looking up! I love the "candles" in Ginger's cake. :)
  • Almost three week followup:

    Ginger's calling for babies is reduced.  She is letting me walk up to her some times though not always yet.  As I type this I am looking out the kitchen window and all four are chasing each other, enjoying the sunshine, acting like kids - making my heart happy.

    I had a scare on Friday when I saw bright red in her urine; though it looked like it was coming from her vulva, it startled me.  I caught a sample and took it to the vet (brownish then) - it was post-partum, thankfully all is fine.

    Saturday was Ginger's fourth birthday, first baby born here.  She had her birthday "cake" at evening milking.  It was grain topped with sunflower seeds and four small carrots and banana skins added to it.  She had it during evening milking.  Milking?  She is giving a little over two pounds a day, milking twice a day.  I'm not sure if she qualifies as a first freshener since she miscarried last year and didn't milk, but it is still good.  She is even starting to use good manners and me not needing to hold a leg the entire time; in fact this morning, the entire time for the left side it was stand-quietly time.  She is definitely a sweet girl.

    Two litters due mid-April which I hope are Summer-type deliveries.  Summer has hers quickly and easily, just like the majority of ND births.  One is Summer's daughter but is a bit on the heavy side.  Both are Ginger's half-sisters, one is also her niece - my two youngest girls, both FF.

    Ginger-4th-BD-Cake.jpg

  • I understand you are trying to make me feel better; however, in this case if the babies had been delivered a day earlier they would have lived.  Twenty-four hours before they were delivered (eight hours after the Stage One Labor began), they were moving around, at a time the vet would have been here had I called him a day earlier.  At the time they were delivered, the buckling looked like he might be breathing which is why the vet did mouth-to-mouth.  And, yes, everything he did to dilate here, etc., would have had to be done if he had been here a day earlier - maybe, just maybe, he would have been able to dilate her enough that she would have been able to finish on her own.

    My purpose for posting this was to remind others to call their vet earlier rather than later.  I made (or rather didn't make) a bad decision when I did not call the vet 24 hours earlier.  I listened to my goat-owner friend who called me and asked about Ginger and told me this was normal.  I want to believe she truly did not hear what I was saying.  The sad thing is if she had not called, I *would* have called my vet a day earlier.  When my goat person's vet saw the video, he said to call my vet immediately!
    There is even a good chance if Ginger had been able to have contractions and deliver the kids herself while we waited for the second vet to deliver them that they would have lived.  However, that is not the way it is, and Ginger and her babies paid for my mistake.


    I do appreciate your comments but please remember that my vet was here with my doe at the time all of this was happening.  The purpose of my post, again, was to remind people to call their vet.  Don't listen to friends, don't go to facebook, etc. - talk to the vet who can ask questions and communicate with you about what is happening and has been happening at this moment in time with this doe.

    Thank you for the hugs.  I shall pass them on to Ginger who is now letting me walk up to her some times.  She is letting me walk up to her some times now and not calling babies as often.

    Patty Meyer said:

    [snip]
    Also, had you called the vet sooner, he would most likely have had do do many of the things he had to do anyway. Of course, there might have been live kids if he had, but maybe not. From my experiences, it seems that one reason for the does body not doing the things it should, such as dilating or contracting, is that a kid has died and is therefor unable to get in a position to be born.
    [snip]
  • Thank you so much for sharing that, Patty! I totally agree that already-dead kids cause a lot of the problems with birthing because they can't get themselves into the birth canal. You really can't second guess yourself and say that you could have prevented the kids deaths.

  • First off, Glenna, I am so sorry that you had to go through that. I have been in a similar situation a few times, and it is so hard.
    However, I don't want you, Glenna, or anyone else reading this, to think that a goat who goes through this is going to act this way all the time. I've actually had this situation happen to two of my does. Both of them went through so much, and came out of it with back ends so swollen. However, they weren't at all afraid of me or angry with me after all was said and done.
    Also, had you called the vet sooner, he would most likely have had do do many of the things he had to do anyway. Of course, there might have been live kids if he had, but maybe not. From my experiences, it seems that one reason for the does body not doing the things it should, such as dilating or contracting, is that a kid has died and is therefor unable to get in a position to be born.
    My last experience was with a doe that went into labor textbook perfect. Big bubble, pushing hard, burst of liquid...then nothing at all. She just stopped contracting and lay down as if to have a nap. I waited no longer than 20 minutes and then went in to see what was going on. I felt an ear, mouth, back leg and front leg. Nothing I did seemed to budge anything. I ended up going to the vet who pulled a live kid in a breech presentation. The next one was dead, twisted into a U shape, head wrapped around over its back. The vet could feel an ear, front and back legs. It took a while to get it figured out. We all thought there were at least three kids in all because of how the dead one was presenting. So, it remains a mystery which part of what kid I had been feeling, but there was nothing else that would have helped, and I went in within 2 hours of knowing the doe was in labor.
    It could easily be that your doe wasn't dilating because there was nothing moving into the birth canal to push against it. The vet would still have to go in and straighten things out.. That's not to say you shouldn't have followed your gut and called earlier, but just that sometimes no matter what we do the doe still needs very painful help to save her life. It seems to me that would have been the case with your ginger, so try not to beat yourself up about it. I'm sure she will come around for you. Hugs to you and Ginger, Glenna.
  • My heart aches for you and your doe.   I had a terrible birthing a few years ago and several days after it I lost my doe.  I still feel sick when I think of her and worry that I did not see something I should have or that I could have done.  Don't beat yourself up - it doesn't help.   I know this because I do it to me.  It also seems that no matter how much you learn or how many years experience you have a bad situation can come up.  You doe will be fine with you soon if not already.

  • I'm so sorry for your loss. I think a lot of people think their goats are in labor when they're really not, which would be the case with your friend. The first few years we had goats, we thought they were in labor for days sometimes. I can certainly understand how your being sick clouded your judgment, so please don't be hard on yourself. {hugs}

  • Glenna, I'm so sorry to read your post, and for your and Ginger's loss. How very sad.

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