Buck over-height breeding quality?

As breeding season begins, I'm getting ready to decide who gets bred, and who doesn't. I'm fairly new to goats, and purchased one goat from a breeder that was less then honest. I purchased a buckling that I used in last years breeding. I just learned that she knowingly sold him (papered) with his dad over height. Now my buck is about 22 inches tall and just over a year old. The breeder is not working with me at all claiming being over height is a "preference" and he is still breeding quality. I disagree, but that's another topic. My biggest question is this: Do I continue breeding him? Or castrate/cull/sell however you might put it, but stop breeding him? Some of my does are 21 to 22 inches tall increasing the likelihood that the offspring will be over height. Advice is appreciated. Thank you!

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  • I discovered the OH by accident because she had him listed for sale on a goat exchange that I keep an eye on. She was selling him papered OH, and stated that he was 25-25.5 inches tall (my buck's dad), and was throwing OH sons. I cantacted her because I was unhappy to discover this. She shows, and participates in LA and he was measured at LA as over height. I'm not sure of more details then this, but she said that "being over height is a preference" and I shot back with "no, its a BREED STANDARD" and explained that selling the son of a buck OH without disclosing that information was not right especially knowing he will be a herd sire at his new farm, and knowing that he has other sons that are over height as well. I paid over $400 for this buck, and paid a hefty vet bill on top of that but justified my loss (back then) because he should make a nice herd sire, but now I just feel like a dumb first time buyer who paid a hefty price for inexperience... I also told her that future buyers should be fully informed of this whenever she sells future animals.






    Deborah Niemann-Boehle said:

    That sounds like a bad buying experience! Did you learn of the height issue from a VERY reputable source, and you are sure it was multiple official measurements? Just more to think about. People in the goat world can be gossipy. I once got a very angry email from a woman who had purchased a buck from me, which she claimed was over-height, even though she didn't even know an official measuring stick, and she was particularly angry because someone had told her that his sire was OH. The irony of the whole thing is that I bought him at a show when he was three years old and had just won reserve champion, which is not going to happen if he's OH, especially because it was an AGS show where every goat is measured walking into the ring. I also had a classification, which was done at age 5 showing his height at 23.5 inches, although that still did not negate whatever the other person had told her.

    I know it's easy to think the worst of someone who sells you a sick goat. I had a similar experience my second year with goats when I drove 8 hours to pick up a doe and a buck. I get there and can SEE that buck is HUGE! I asked if he was OH, and the seller said he was "a little tall." I told him that the buck wouldn't fit in the dog crate I'd brought, so I couldn't buy him. But I did take home the doe, and I was so worried that there was something horribly wrong with that doe. A few days after I brought her home, her milk supply went down, and I took her to the vet and had her tested for everything! Turned out she was perfectly healthy, just stressed from the move. But it's understandable that you'd be wary of everything with this seller.

    I have a buck who I kept thinking was going to go OH, so I kept measuring him, even after breeding and when the does were kidding. If he had measured OH at some point, I wouldn't have sold any buck kids out of him, and would have told any doe buyers about it, but he's 4 now and still 22 inches. He had grown insanely fast as a kid but then really slowed down after he hit a year. My daughter referred to him as the draft horse when he was two months old because he was twice the size of the other kids his age.

    I wound up butchering the one buck we had who went OH, and as far as I know, no one ever had a kid go OH who was sired by him. Most of the people who purposely use OH bucks say that they don't throw OH daughters, but no one has ever actually shared documentation showing that.

  • That sounds like a bad buying experience! Did you learn of the height issue from a VERY reputable source, and you are sure it was multiple official measurements? Just more to think about. People in the goat world can be gossipy. I once got a very angry email from a woman who had purchased a buck from me, which she claimed was over-height, even though she didn't even know an official measuring stick, and she was particularly angry because someone had told her that his sire was OH. The irony of the whole thing is that I bought him at a show when he was three years old and had just won reserve champion, which is not going to happen if he's OH, especially because it was an AGS show where every goat is measured walking into the ring. I also had a classification, which was done at age 5 showing his height at 23.5 inches, although that still did not negate whatever the other person had told her.

    I know it's easy to think the worst of someone who sells you a sick goat. I had a similar experience my second year with goats when I drove 8 hours to pick up a doe and a buck. I get there and can SEE that buck is HUGE! I asked if he was OH, and the seller said he was "a little tall." I told him that the buck wouldn't fit in the dog crate I'd brought, so I couldn't buy him. But I did take home the doe, and I was so worried that there was something horribly wrong with that doe. A few days after I brought her home, her milk supply went down, and I took her to the vet and had her tested for everything! Turned out she was perfectly healthy, just stressed from the move. But it's understandable that you'd be wary of everything with this seller.

    I have a buck who I kept thinking was going to go OH, so I kept measuring him, even after breeding and when the does were kidding. If he had measured OH at some point, I wouldn't have sold any buck kids out of him, and would have told any doe buyers about it, but he's 4 now and still 22 inches. He had grown insanely fast as a kid but then really slowed down after he hit a year. My daughter referred to him as the draft horse when he was two months old because he was twice the size of the other kids his age.

    I wound up butchering the one buck we had who went OH, and as far as I know, no one ever had a kid go OH who was sired by him. Most of the people who purposely use OH bucks say that they don't throw OH daughters, but no one has ever actually shared documentation showing that.

  • Thank you Deborah for easing my mind a little. This was my first goat purchase ever. Luckily I only purchased one goat from this person. I'm not sure of the doe's height, but the buck is about 25 to 25&1/2 inches tall now, and his sons are going over height by ADGA standards. Since I own one of the sons, I was unhappy when I learned of this issue. This same breeder sold me him with obvious signs of illness when I purchased him. The breeder assured me that he was fine, so I took him home. He did not look well to me at all, so I called the vet, and got him in first thing the next morning. He had a fever, an upper respiratory infection, and parasites infestation. The vet bill was almost $200 plus injectable antibiotics. The breeder said they were not responsible since the goat had left their farm... Now that I found out his dad is significantly over height, it just made me that much more unhappy with the purchase. The breeder also knew the buck (dad) was over height at purchase, but did not disclose this to me.

    I will take your advise, and take my chances breeding him, but unlike the owner I purchased him from I will make the buyers fully aware of the potential for going over height.
  • Unless your goats are ONLY registered with NDGA, they are not that close to over-height. AGS and ADGA heights are 22.5 inches for does and 23.5 inches for bucks. There is no reason to assume that your buck will go over-height. They all grow at different rates. And one single measurement means nothings. There are champions who have measured over-height at some shows. Unless you are using an official AGS measuring stick, your measurement is also meaningless. You never mentioned his dam's height, which will also influence his height. Some people see nothing wrong with using a tall buck with a smaller doe because they think it reduces the chance of an OH buck.

    The breeder is somewhat correct about height being a preference. There is a HUGE difference of opinion on buck heights. There are breeders out there who use over-height bucks, although they do usually state the buck's height on their website and point out that he's over-height. Online arguments have been breaking out online for as long as I've owned goats because there is a group of breeders who think the buck height should be raised. They believe that having a one-inch height difference between bucks and does is unrealistic. 

    Doing anything to the buck at this point would be extremely premature. No one has a crystal ball, so you have no idea what his mature height will be. I have never stopped using a buck for fear of him going OH. I've only had it happen once. His sire was actually on the smaller side at 22 inches, although his dam was 22.5, and he wound up at 24.5. However, he had full brothers who were quite small. Genetics is a crapshoot. 

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