From "listening" to what others do it sounds like first breedings are usually done when a doe is around 1 year old. My understanding is that goats are not fully grown until between 2 & 3 years old. In other mammels it is usually reccomended that breeding is not done until growth plates are closed. Why is it " OK" to breed goats at such a young age? Yearlings DO still look like young teenagers....just wondering what the reasoning is on this...
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Second to Ruth, a breeder friend has a few does visiting who have been with her bucks several times this year. The does have been bred once in 5 or 6 years, and now have difficulty getting bred. She feels that if you skip more than 2 seasons (and don't have a buck on the premises), it affects their cycles and breeding.
Yes, when people say 40 pounds, they mean at the time of breeding.
Shepherdess said:
After reading this thread and others online I've decided breeding by weight is the best way to go. So 40lb is what is considered the best? and 40lb at breeding time right?
The breeder I bought my does from said she doesnt breed until they weigh 40 lb., but there were post previously on here - and I tend to agree - that just because they are 40 lbs. doesnt mean their bodies are ready to maintain pregnancy and provide nutrition for themselves and kids. I have read post here that said they had read that 18 months to kid is the better choice. I personally wouldnt breed before a doe was a year - but then again, I'm no expert. And I have read that by waiting you lose a year of production.
It's amazing how all of these conversations are going right along with what I'm reading in Goat Science and Production. Anyway, she says that by 3-4 months fresh, the does are usually starting to gain weight, and you're probably that far long, right? I usually just give the Calf Manna for the first couple months because they lose so much weight at that time, and protein helps build muscle.
Melissa Johnson said:
I didnt breed my does until just before they were two - the one that was covered kidded at 2 years. She did great - and I waited because I just wasnt convinced something so little could benefit from pregnancy at that time. The breeder I bought from told me not before they reach 40 lbs. I also read that waiting to for that 2nd year results in the doe not being as productive in milk because you are a year behind. Think that was the key to "production" I started giving my FF Calf Manna as you suggested Deborah, and the change was awesome! Actually I am still giving some and wonder if I should stop. What is the benefit of a boost in protein? My does look really good presently - with Goat Chow, little Calf Manna, Alfalfa, BOSS, and pinch of hoof/hair horse guard. But that sounds a little hot.....
I didnt breed my does until just before they were two - the one that was covered kidded at 2 years. She did great - and I waited because I just wasnt convinced something so little could benefit from pregnancy at that time. The breeder I bought from told me not before they reach 40 lbs. I also read that waiting to for that 2nd year results in the doe not being as productive in milk because you are a year behind. Think that was the key to "production" I started giving my FF Calf Manna as you suggested Deborah, and the change was awesome! Actually I am still giving some and wonder if I should stop. What is the benefit of a boost in protein? My does look really good presently - with Goat Chow, little Calf Manna, Alfalfa, BOSS, and pinch of hoof/hair horse guard. But that sounds a little hot.....
I'm curious at what age these goats first breed in the wild in Africa, would that be a good standard to go by? I have a friend over there whose mom has some African goats, I could ask him.
Nevermind, I just read Deborah's post which already discusses this =)
I've been reading Goat Science and Production by Sandra Solomain, PhD. (2010) and just thought I'd share what she has to say on the subject:
Yearlings (12 months of age and older) can be bred. The proper weight for breeding usually is 65% of adult weight for cattle, but no benchmark has been established for goats and may differ with breeds.
Adult NDs usually weight about 75 pounds, so if we were to follow the cattle benchmark, we would be waiting until 50 pounds to breed NDs. If we did that, I don't think we'd ever see any yearling first fresheners.
Jackie, Ii appreciate your comments and agree with your point of View. I am sure that the "later in life" comments are also correct--a "first" breeding of a doe who is over 4 years would also increase complications. It is true that "If you don't use it you loose it :-) " I plan to wait to breed my does for kids to be due when they are near 2 year old.
I think I wandered around the point I was trying to make in the above post...which was that just because an animal CAN be bred early doesn't mean it SHOULD be bred early. Some breeders (of whatever species) may get away with it a few times with no ill effects but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Does may be able to conceive before they are a year old....girls may be able to conceive when they are twelve-but that doesn't mean it's the optimal time for giving birth. OK...I'm getting off my band stand here. I have just seen so much cruelty and stupidity in the horse world, that occurred because it was always money, money, money (we won't even discuss the crap I've seen as a nurse). Everyone does what s/he needs to do for his/her own reasons. I have not read P. Coleby's book and I can understand the comment "that waiting to breed goats later in life is actually not very good." But I think here we're discussing the difference between breeding a doe at 8 months vs. 18 months which is really not that much "later in life." and simply gives the doe more time to mature.
At least with my goats, it seems that most yearlings would equate to 12-13 year old humans giving birth. A lot of humans are done growing by 16. While it's true that in nature they would be getting pregnant on their first or second heat cycle, I've come to realize that nature is inherently very wasteful. All an animal needs to do is replace itself before it dies, and the species continues. If I let a turkey hen raise her chicks, she's doing good to get one or two to adulthood -- and that's on our farm with fencing around a chicken yard that's about an acre or two. They just loose them in the tall grass, but if we get mama and babies into a movable pen, they all survive. Same with guineas. Chickens are usually better. Long time ago on a goat group someone asked why NDs have so many kids compared to the Swiss goats, and the fact is that Boers and Nubians are also prone to multiples, and both are also from Africa. Someone suggested that NDs might have so many kids because they originated in such a harsh environment, it was just nature's way of ensuring the survival of the species. Rather than each goat only having one or two kids a year, they had three or four because their odds of survival were lower than goats in Europe. It's an interesting thought. I've been paying attention to other animals since then, and there does seem to be a correlation between odds of survival and number born. With poultry, the worst mothers have the largest broods -- guineas can hatch 15-20 keets, turkeys can easily hatch a dozen, chickens usually hatch only 6-9. Cows only have a single calf, and their odds of survival are quite good.
As far as younger goats recovering more quickly, that's not the case here. By six weeks fresh, most goats lose a lot of weight, and in my experience, the yearlings look the worst. Then you don't see much difference between ages until you get up to about eight or nine, and they start to look not so great either. I think genetics plays a big role in this too. I have a buck out of a doe that won the AGS national championship at age 10 and two months fresh. Right now I have a yearling whose dam is seven, and both of them look equally poorly conditioned at two to three months fresh.
I'm starting to think that 18-24 months is better for first freshening. If you look at size of the goats, there aren't that many that are big enough by a year, and I don't just mean weight. They don't have that much depth or width in their body either. Pat Coleby is in Australia, so she has completely different growing condition and different breeds of goats, so maybe they grow faster?
I've never heard of any research on age at first freshening as it relates to the goat's health in the US. Like the article I was reading recently, they all focus on getting yearlings to freshen so you can maximize profits.
Replies
Second to Ruth, a breeder friend has a few does visiting who have been with her bucks several times this year. The does have been bred once in 5 or 6 years, and now have difficulty getting bred. She feels that if you skip more than 2 seasons (and don't have a buck on the premises), it affects their cycles and breeding.
Shepherdess said:
Melissa Johnson said:
I'm curious at what age these goats first breed in the wild in Africa, would that be a good standard to go by? I have a friend over there whose mom has some African goats, I could ask him.
Nevermind, I just read Deborah's post which already discusses this =)
Adult NDs usually weight about 75 pounds, so if we were to follow the cattle benchmark, we would be waiting until 50 pounds to breed NDs. If we did that, I don't think we'd ever see any yearling first fresheners.
At least with my goats, it seems that most yearlings would equate to 12-13 year old humans giving birth. A lot of humans are done growing by 16. While it's true that in nature they would be getting pregnant on their first or second heat cycle, I've come to realize that nature is inherently very wasteful. All an animal needs to do is replace itself before it dies, and the species continues. If I let a turkey hen raise her chicks, she's doing good to get one or two to adulthood -- and that's on our farm with fencing around a chicken yard that's about an acre or two. They just loose them in the tall grass, but if we get mama and babies into a movable pen, they all survive. Same with guineas. Chickens are usually better. Long time ago on a goat group someone asked why NDs have so many kids compared to the Swiss goats, and the fact is that Boers and Nubians are also prone to multiples, and both are also from Africa. Someone suggested that NDs might have so many kids because they originated in such a harsh environment, it was just nature's way of ensuring the survival of the species. Rather than each goat only having one or two kids a year, they had three or four because their odds of survival were lower than goats in Europe. It's an interesting thought. I've been paying attention to other animals since then, and there does seem to be a correlation between odds of survival and number born. With poultry, the worst mothers have the largest broods -- guineas can hatch 15-20 keets, turkeys can easily hatch a dozen, chickens usually hatch only 6-9. Cows only have a single calf, and their odds of survival are quite good.
As far as younger goats recovering more quickly, that's not the case here. By six weeks fresh, most goats lose a lot of weight, and in my experience, the yearlings look the worst. Then you don't see much difference between ages until you get up to about eight or nine, and they start to look not so great either. I think genetics plays a big role in this too. I have a buck out of a doe that won the AGS national championship at age 10 and two months fresh. Right now I have a yearling whose dam is seven, and both of them look equally poorly conditioned at two to three months fresh.
I'm starting to think that 18-24 months is better for first freshening. If you look at size of the goats, there aren't that many that are big enough by a year, and I don't just mean weight. They don't have that much depth or width in their body either. Pat Coleby is in Australia, so she has completely different growing condition and different breeds of goats, so maybe they grow faster?
I've never heard of any research on age at first freshening as it relates to the goat's health in the US. Like the article I was reading recently, they all focus on getting yearlings to freshen so you can maximize profits.
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